All Systems STOPPED...

by Scott Fri May 01, 2009 7:44 pm

Scott: Number of posts : 1651
Location : Anoka, MN
Age : 54
Registration date : 2008-05-20

Post n°26

Re: All Systems STOPPED...

Post by Scott Fri May 01, 2009 7:44 pm

Thanks Donivan,

Theres an Auto Swap Meet taking place right down the road from my house, I spent about five hours down there today. One booth had a good selection of aftermarket fuse boxes, I'll run down and pick one up tomorrow.

Also found a 66 Econoline Van, but didnt have my camera, their asking $2800 for it. I talked to the gu about the site, and figured he wouldnt be interested since he was selling. But another guy he was with said he had a friend rebuilding one. I passed the address for this site, we'll see if he makes it.

by Scott Sun May 03, 2009 7:49 am

Scott

Scott: Number of posts : 1651
Location : Anoka, MN
Age : 54
Registration date : 2008-05-20

Post n°27

Re: All Systems STOPPED...

Post by Scott Sun May 03, 2009 7:49 am

I scored a couple of 6 fuse boxes yesterday, along with new door locks.

Now to sort out the wire upgrades, and how I want it to look when I'm finished.

The door locks were cheap at $5 for two, it means I have two different door keys, but for a total of $10 its way better then not having any door keys.

by Scott Wed May 06, 2009 3:47 pm

Scott

Scott: Number of posts : 1651
Location : Anoka, MN
Age : 54
Registration date : 2008-05-20

Post n°28

Re: All Systems STOPPED...

Post by Scott Wed May 06, 2009 3:47 pm

Any of y'all know where I can buy the wire to make a new harness that matches the original colors Question

by Kakster Wed May 06, 2009 11:36 pm

Kakster

Kakster: Number of posts : 236
Location : Torrance, CA
Registration date : 2008-05-18

Post n°29

Re: All Systems STOPPED...

Post by Kakster Wed May 06, 2009 11:36 pm

http://www.mcmaster.com/#electrical-wire-cable-and-cords/=1rkpb1 McMaster Carr has a lot of stuff. Here is a link to there wire page, scroll to the colors and see if you can piece together the gage and colors you need.

by Guest Thu May 07, 2009 8:37 am

Guest

Guest: Guest

Post n°30

Re: All Systems STOPPED...

Post by Guest Thu May 07, 2009 8:37 am

i bought several rolls of 14ga. from napa in every color at $6.99 a roll. kind of spendy, but they've got most of the van rainbow! i wish i'd taken pictures of how crispy it looked under the dash, but its all good now!

by ViewMaster Thu May 07, 2009 12:49 pm

ViewMaster

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Post n°31

Re: All Systems STOPPED...

Post by ViewMaster Thu May 07, 2009 12:49 pm

Scott wrote:But I also found where they spliced in a 20 gauge wire to the end of the 12 gauge coil wire, then juiced the coil using the 20 gauge. I'm suprised the thin wire didn't burst into flames.

Scott the 20 gauge wire sounds like some one used it to replace the resistor wire that is used for reducing the voltage to the coil when running, it gets a full 12 volts only when starting. It will run fine but your points will wear out quite fast. You can use a 12 gauge wire from the ignition switch but you should put a chrysler ballast resistor before the coil. Just leave it long enough so that when you change to an HEI you can eliminate the resistor and run the 12 gauge straight to it.

by **donivan65** Sat May 09, 2009 11:28 am

donivan65

donivan65: Governor; Number of posts : 12220
Location : San Diego, California
Registration date : 2008-05-12

Post n°32

Re: All Systems STOPPED...

Post by donivan65 Sat May 09, 2009 11:28 am

I think the points can only handle 3 amps, so the wiring is 20 gauge,,,,and the resistance wire goes to the positive side of the coil BUT,,,,,when the starter cranks, the solenoid sends a hot shot of 12 volts to the positive side of the coil and overrides the 6 volts coming through the resistance wire. And that wire is the yellow 20 gauge that runs from the R terminal on the starter solenoid to the positive side of the coil. And they could do it a couple of different ways,,,,,,,both wires could meet at the coil or at the solenoid,,,,,but there is always a wire from the solenoid to the coil for the boost cranking voltage,,,,,that resistance wire can connect in anywhere,,,even going through the boost wire to the coil. But HEI ain't going to like no little 20 gauge wire if he gets installed on the van,,,,,,,

by Scott Wed Jun 24, 2009 8:56 am

Scott

Scott: Number of posts : 1651
Location : Anoka, MN
Age : 54
Registration date : 2008-05-20

Post n°33

Re: All Systems STOPPED...

Post by Scott Wed Jun 24, 2009 8:56 am

donivan65 wrote:And you don't want to build it back to 40 year old standards,,,,,upgrade it,,,,the electrical system has a heavier load to carry now. You really want a heavier gauge wire on all those Red wires,,,,,,,and also
the start wire all the way from the ignition switch to the S terminal on the starter needs to be heavier.

donivan65 wrote:I like 10 gauge for the minimum for the Red feed wires,,,,and good connections at any junction blocks that it goes through,,,,,,,and that starter wire is always a problem,,,,,,,every van I see has a voltage loss in it,,,,,,,I put a relay right next to my starter on my vehicles so that the starter wire from the ignition just energizes the relay and the the relay just like takes the voltage from the big battery terminal on the solenoid and sends it over an inch to the S terminal and energizes the starter,,,,,,,,and 12 gauge would be good for the wire from the ignition switch, through the neutral switch if installed, and to the S terminal on the starter solenoid. I would run another 10 gauge hot wire to the fuse block area for future equipment while you are at it,,,,,,,,you never know what new toys you will install in the future,,,,,,,

Hey Donivan, you have a picture of that relay you put in next to the starter, or a basic wire diagram of how you tied it in, where you mounted it, and what kind of relay I need to get. I haven’t bought them before, but I’m guessing you have to pick them by how much juice they are going to handle..?

I’m taking your advice and changing the 12 gauge ignition wire to 10 gauge, I guess that means the same for the wires that junction off of it too? (Like the Voltage Regulator, Generator, Light Switch, Horn Relay, and Fuse Box) Since I’m running two separate fuse boxes, that hold six fuses each, I am going to run two 10 gauge feeds from the starter, with fusible links on each of course.

Any other gauge changes you would make?

I’m also going to pull the Generator and Voltage Regulator and install an Alternator (100amp), and switch to an HEI distributor.

Should I make those changes now while I am redoing the harness, or is it a simple change I can make later? Whats the "resistance wire" attaching to the coil? Is that something I can ask for at NAPA?

Pouring over the Wire Diagram I noticed that 'GS' model vans used a 12 guage pink wire, where the rest of the vans used a 20 gauge white/orange and Purple. A quick look at my VIN let me know that I have the GS, that's why the heavy pink wire was originally in the harness.

Sorry to lump so many questions in one post, but I'm trying to clear a lot at once so I can get moving again.

by **donivan65** Wed Jun 24, 2009 11:16 am

donivan65

donivan65: Governor; Number of posts : 12220
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Registration date : 2008-05-12

Post n°34

Re: All Systems STOPPED...

Post by donivan65 Wed Jun 24, 2009 11:16 am

Ok,,,,we can do this in a couple of parts,,,,,right now the voltage has to go from B on the solenoid to S on the solenoid to crank the engine,,,,thats like 15 feet and a couple of switches and connectors,,,,,I have seen only 8 volts getting through on some vehicles,,,,,so put a relay there,,,,to connect B and S,,,,a 1 inch travel, and use that wire from the key to energize the relay. So basically get a relay,,,,,any 12 volt relay like this Ford or a little black plastic off road driving light one and wire it in as a short cut.....and you need to connect B to the POS of the relay,,,,,S to the out put or load of the relay,,,,and DISCONNECT the S wire off the solenoid and move it to activate the relay. And 10 gauge would be good for those 2 connector wires from the solenoid to the relay.

All Systems STOPPED... - Page 2 Headli10

All Systems STOPPED... - Page 2 Ford_r15

All Systems STOPPED... - Page 2 Soleno11

by Scott Wed Jun 24, 2009 12:35 pm

Scott

Scott: Number of posts : 1651
Location : Anoka, MN
Age : 54
Registration date : 2008-05-20

Post n°35

Re: All Systems STOPPED...

Post by Scott Wed Jun 24, 2009 12:35 pm

you need to connect B to the POS of the relay,,,,,S to the out put or load of the relay,,,,and DISCONNECT the S wire off the solenoid and move it to activate the relay. And 10 gauge would be good for those 2 connector wires from the solenoid to the relay.

So the fourth terminal on the Ford Relay is just a ground right?

This relay setup should be in a recommended upgrade section of the site, along with new brakelines, and wire gauges.

by **donivan65** Wed Jun 24, 2009 12:44 pm

donivan65

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Post n°36

Re: All Systems STOPPED...

Post by donivan65 Wed Jun 24, 2009 12:44 pm

,,,,no,,, no,,,, no,,,,,, that is what Ford uses as the boost to the coil,,,,,,it is connected to the output, (starter), so it sends 12 volts out when the relay is energized. This relay is internally grounded but you can get a universal relay that looks exactly like this that requires you to ground one of the small wires to complete the pull in winding circuit.

by **donivan65** Wed Jun 24, 2009 12:47 pm

donivan65

donivan65: Governor; Number of posts : 12220
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Registration date : 2008-05-12

Post n°37

Re: All Systems STOPPED...

Post by donivan65 Wed Jun 24, 2009 12:47 pm

And we got another post dealing with this,,,,,,

https://vintage-vans.forumotion.com/between-the-seats-g-f17/electrical-heat-issues-maybe-t5603.htm

by **donivan65** Wed Jun 24, 2009 3:21 pm

donivan65

donivan65: Governor; Number of posts : 12220
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Registration date : 2008-05-12

Post n°38

Re: All Systems STOPPED...

Post by donivan65 Wed Jun 24, 2009 3:21 pm

Ok,,,,,lets do the resistance wire,,,,,,,It probably starts off pink from the ignition switch,,,,,happily carrying 12 volts until it gets to the connector at the doghouse,,,,,,,Then it turns into an asbestos wrapped wire and suddenly that voltage is cut down to 6 volts,,,,, and then it gets weirder,,,,it goes to the R terminal on the starter solenoid and dies. BUT here comes that little Yellow wire,,,,it hooks up to that terminal and goes to the positive side of the coil,,,,so it carries that 6 volts the rest of the way. But that Yellow wire has another job also,,,,,when the starter cranks,,,12 volts is sent out the Yellow wire through the contacts of the solenoid and that gives the coil a 12 volt BOOST for a hotter spark to get that engine rolling. And there could be other ways that the resistance wire connects to the coil,,,,could go right to it with the yellow wire,,,,,,it could be spliced into the Yellow wire somewhere upstream. The HEI distributor runs a 12 gauge wire to power it up, so that would be a mandatory upgrade for you----run a 12 gauge wire from the ignition RUN terminal to the distributor,,,,,,basically the same path as the resistance wire now goes,,,,,,

by Scott Wed Jun 24, 2009 7:43 pm

Scott

Scott: Number of posts : 1651
Location : Anoka, MN
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Post n°39

Re: All Systems STOPPED...

Post by Scott Wed Jun 24, 2009 7:43 pm

Your right on with that one, I cut thatasbestos wrapped wire about a week ago, glad I saved it.

So, besides changing the primary 12 gauge starter to ignition wire to 10 gauge, and all the wires that junction off of it, like the Voltage Regulator, Generator, Light Switch, Horn Relay, and Fuse Box, is there any gauge changes you would or did make?

by **donivan65** Wed Jun 24, 2009 9:16 pm

donivan65

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Post n°40

Re: All Systems STOPPED...

Post by donivan65 Wed Jun 24, 2009 9:16 pm

Just about every van I looked at had the connector at the doghouse melted. The heat from the engine, corrosion at the terminals and the high current draw from the headlights, wipers and blower fan, just seem to cause problems. So the most important change would be to run a direct 10 gauge from the Bat terminal on the solenoid, through a fusible link, under the floor and into the dash where you split it to the fuse box, ignition switch and head light switch. And upgrade the Run wire for your future HEI distributor.

by Scott Thu Jun 25, 2009 7:33 am

Scott

Scott: Number of posts : 1651
Location : Anoka, MN
Age : 54
Registration date : 2008-05-20

Post n°41

Re: All Systems STOPPED...

Post by Scott Thu Jun 25, 2009 7:33 am

Thanks for all the detail Donivan, I appreciate you putting all that out there for me. I think I have enough to make a go of it now, and when its all done I'm sure it will seem much more simple, but at the moment it seems like a big project.

by **donivan65** Thu Jun 25, 2009 9:44 am

donivan65

donivan65: Governor; Number of posts : 12220
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Registration date : 2008-05-12

Post n°42

Re: All Systems STOPPED...

Post by donivan65 Thu Jun 25, 2009 9:44 am

One step at a time gets it done,,,,,once you get one circuit installed, then you basically just keep repeating the process.

by **donivan65** Sun Jul 12, 2009 12:28 am

donivan65

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Post n°43

Re: All Systems STOPPED...

Post by donivan65 Sun Jul 12, 2009 12:28 am

Mounted one of these mini Ford starter relays on a 2nd Gen today for the heat soak problem,,,,,,,

All Systems STOPPED... - Page 2 Reelay10

by Kakster Sun Jul 12, 2009 4:17 pm

Kakster

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Post n°44

Re: All Systems STOPPED...

Post by Kakster Sun Jul 12, 2009 4:17 pm

I found in my electrical parts archive a relay that seemed it would work. I hooked it up and yeouza, no more need of a scredriver to short the starter wires!

All Systems STOPPED... - Page 2 Starte11

Here is a wire diagram too

All Systems STOPPED... - Page 2 Starte12

by **donivan65** Sun Jul 12, 2009 10:30 pm

donivan65

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Post n°45

Re: All Systems STOPPED...

Post by donivan65 Sun Jul 12, 2009 10:30 pm

And the biggest concern on which relay you use is if it is internally or externally grounded,,,,,

by Scott Mon Jul 13, 2009 9:43 am

Scott

Scott: Number of posts : 1651
Location : Anoka, MN
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Registration date : 2008-05-20

Post n°46

Re: All Systems STOPPED...

Post by Scott Mon Jul 13, 2009 9:43 am

Thanks for the pics, I bought the NAPA relay Donivan listed the other day but havent tried it yet.

I'm on the fence trying to decide if I'm going to rewire, or fix it now and replace it later. Since the vans been sitting way longer then I every planned I'm leaning towards patching it together, but I don't want to find myself on the side of the road trying ot sort it all out.

Do or die, it has to be running by September..

The color wire diagram floating around the site shows a Brown 10 gauge wire coming off of the Ignition, but the factory service manual doesnt have it. I'm finding an extra Pink 10 gauge wire in the factory service manual that connects to the fuse panel that isnt listed on the color wire diagram. I need to take a longer look at it, and see what my van actually has, but logic would say that one covers the other one, and maybe it was a change that took place between different year models.

by Scott Wed Jul 15, 2009 5:08 pm

Scott

Scott: Number of posts : 1651
Location : Anoka, MN
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Post n°47

Re: All Systems STOPPED...

Post by Scott Wed Jul 15, 2009 5:08 pm

Pouring over the wire diagrams posted in the parts department, http://www.vintage-vans.com/chevy_parts_dept.html, I see that the extra Brown 10 gauge wire I mentioned above was added in 1970. It looks like its purpose is to feed power to a row of fuses, rather then using a pink wire like they did prior to 1970.

Although the color diagram is extremely helpful, watch the wire gauges, they seem to spontaneously gauges. I studied it for a couple of weeks while getting ready to make my own from scratch, plus a few mods. When I noticed the gauge numbers changing as I followed a wire I decided to pull out the handy dandy service manual for verification. That's when I noticed the extra brown wire. Since I'm using a little thicker wire there I am going to stick with the pink wire used for my year.

Donivan, you suggested running a second 10 gauge wire from the starter, but where would you tie it into the system? Also, how will the second feed effect the Alternator output, doesn't the voltage regulator adjust the Alternator output based on Voltage or Amps in the system? scratch

by **donivan65** Wed Jul 15, 2009 6:56 pm

donivan65

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Post n°48

Re: All Systems STOPPED...

Post by donivan65 Wed Jul 15, 2009 6:56 pm

The voltage regulator monitors voltage. It then has the Alternator send as much amps as necessary to raise it to the cut off limit. Thats why you should put the sensing line of the regulator near to the battery so it gets a full charge. As for another line, you don't have to connect it yet,,,,,just run a wire like from around the starter solenoid up to around the fuse block and tape it off,,,,,,,add a couple of more wires from around the fuse block to the bottom of the radiator and tape them off also, for that electric fan you will install some day. I also ran a hot line up through my drivers side channel to the rear of my van for a couple of 12 volt plugs to run my fan and chargers for my phone and laptop,,,,,,,

by Scott Wed Jul 15, 2009 7:28 pm

Scott

Scott: Number of posts : 1651
Location : Anoka, MN
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Registration date : 2008-05-20

Post n°49

Re: All Systems STOPPED...

Post by Scott Wed Jul 15, 2009 7:28 pm

Would it be a good idea to run the Sensing Line off of the 'B' terminal on the Starter Solenoid?

That way if / when I do start using the second 10 gauge run the Sensing Line will see what being pulled from both lines.

by **donivan65** Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:21 pm

donivan65

donivan65: Governor; Number of posts : 12220
Location : San Diego, California
Registration date : 2008-05-12

Post n°50

Re: All Systems STOPPED...

Post by donivan65 Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:21 pm

That would be a good place for the wiring to meet the battery,,,,,,or at your relay,,,,,the Alternator output and fusible links could meet there also,,,,,,whatever seems to work best for you. The biggest problem I see in that sensing line is when they hook it right to the alternator output on the back of the Alternator,,,,,,It turns off the alternator before the charge gets back to the battery,,,,,,,

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