VintAGE-Vans

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BRINGING IT ALL TOGETHER.... A's, G's & E's


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Space Truckin
G-Man
mikeysly
RipVanArkie
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veefre
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donivan65
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    Suspension bushings

    veefre
    veefre


    Number of posts : 424
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    Post by veefre Tue Jul 09, 2013 11:40 pm

    Seems simpler just to use the RB99 cartridges for the front eyelets - providing the spring eyelets haven't expanded too much.

    I do like that the bushings fit into the eyelets without the outer sleeves - this means they probably function better, more rubber, (they would be able to move in relation to the spring eyelet)...

    donivan65
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    Post by donivan65 Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:08 am

    ,,,,,now thats where I have a problem,,,,,,,I removed the cartridges from a 1969,,,,,they were 1.140,,,,,,,,,,and that is NOT 1 1/8",,,,,,the replacements fit good,,,,,,,HOWEVER,,,,,the Spring Shop called them RB 99,,,,,,,but they are listed as being 1 1/8",,,,,,,,,I think they must be labeled wrong,,,,,,,seems to me if you ordered RB 99,,,,,you would get ones that were too small.......and just what is the correct part number for the 1.140 diameter cartridges,,,,,,,and some of those are really expensive,,,,,so it is WAY easier just to use the polyurethane bushings and slap a sleeve in them,,,,,,at least I know what I got,,,,,,,,,
    donivan65
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    Post by donivan65 Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:12 am

    Suspension bushings - Page 3 Spring11
    veefre
    veefre


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    Post by veefre Wed Jul 10, 2013 2:15 pm

    I'm wondering if it would be possible to get sleeve tube stock that could be cut to length. It can't be all that special stuff because it's under compression, not tension or shearing, and is supported by the 1/2" thru bolt. As far as I can tell, the inner sleeve would have a 1/2" ID and a 5/8" OD, which would be a 1/16" wall thickness.
    donivan65
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    Post by donivan65 Wed Jul 10, 2013 2:33 pm

    If you are going to reinvent everything,   here are the measurements,,,,,,,,



    Suspension bushings - Page 3 Repair19
    veefre
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    Post by veefre Wed Jul 10, 2013 5:59 pm

    What about just breaking down a cartridge and using the inner sleeve out of that? Too hard to get the metal out of the rubber?
    donivan65
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    Post by donivan65 Wed Jul 10, 2013 7:50 pm

    Those stock sleeves are about 0.060 smaller than the polyurethane sleeves are and those inner sleeves can be really tough to pull out,,,,,,you want things tight,,,,,,not the whole axle sliding side to side on the sleeves while you are going down the road,,,,,,seems like a lot of trouble just for a $3 sleeve,,,,,,
    veefre
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    Post by veefre Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:33 pm

    Thanks for all the info, Doni. I've been taking a little break from the van suspension work. However, the suspension squeaking has come back. I *think* it's coming primarily from the rear mounts on the front springs, based on where the vibration is strongest. That is, there's vibration I can feel on the whole spring, but none at the front chassis mount and plenty at the rear shackles. It's a little difficult to test because when I'm at the rear shackle there's not a lot of movement I can induce in the suspension. I haven't yet disassembled, cleaned, and lubed the rear bushings. Planning on doing that tomorrow. Perhaps after that, the squeaking will subside again. If not, new bushings will be ordered up. Might order them anyway, cause rubber doesn't last forever.

    In the meantime picked up a U-joint install/removal tool (Harbor Freight 4065) today. So I'll be able to remove the front cartridges if needed.
    mikeysly
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    Post by mikeysly Wed Jul 17, 2013 7:56 am

    been messin' with my suspension for 20 years and still aint right. one extra leaf on the front, but my rubber bushings keep tearing up. is there a heavy duty/more durable option fo bushings?
    veefre
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    Post by veefre Wed Jul 17, 2013 8:36 am

    "I removed the cartridges from a 1969,,,,,they were 1.140,,,,,,,,,,and that is NOT 1 1/8",,,,,,the replacements fit good,,,,,,,HOWEVER,,,,,the Spring Shop called them RB 99,,,,,,,but they are listed as being 1 1/8",,"

    Typically dimensions listed in fractions are given a tolerance of +/- .032 unless otherwise noted. So 1.140 being only .015 off from 1.125 or 1/8", is perhaps within tolerance, even though 1.140 is the correct dimension. I think some of vendors list parts in fractions because they figure it's easier for stockers and customers to remember than a string of decimal equivalents. Just saying. I always take fractional dimensions with a grain of salt.
    donivan65
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    Post by donivan65 Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:04 am

    You can't be having tolerances like that when you need a tight press fit,,,,,,like I said,,,,,I bought 2  different length 1 1/8"  cartridges,,,,,,,one was tight,,,,,the other just slipped right through the spring hole,,,,,,,,thats why I go with the polyurethane ones,,,,,,when I push out the cartridges, I put a  flat washer slightly smaller than the spring hole on a long  1/2" bolt and push the bolt, and the whole cartridge out with the clamp,,,,,  


    Suspension bushings - Page 3 Chevy_13
    veefre
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    Post by veefre Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:41 am

    Well, yes, of course, a press fit would be at least -.001, depending on the materials and construction. More if the eyelet tends to stretch, for example. That's why fractional dimensions are rarely if ever used for parts that need to be precise, as in a press fit vs a slip fit. Or if you really want to split hairs, an interference fit.

    So what two part number cartridges did you try? Which one fit well? Which one slipped through?
    donivan65
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    Post by donivan65 Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:15 pm

    I bought a sack of RB 52 cartridges from SDTruckSprings which are for 1st Gens,,,,2 1/2" long,,,,9/16" bolt hole,,,,,my buddy wanted cartridges for his 2nd Gen,,,,,my 1 1/8"   (1.125) cartridges slipped right through the hole,,,he took the springs to National Spring,,,,they sold him some 1.140 cartridges that they called RB 99 that are OFFICIALLY known as 1 1/8 " also.......they fit good,,,,,but before I tell the World that RB 99 cartridges fit the front springs on a 2nd Gen,,,,,I need a better explanation,,,,,National Spring  sells them for $18 each,,,,,How do they get 1 1/8" to equal 1 .140?  And what size are the ones from SDTruckSprings?  And the rears on a 2nd Gen are a different size also,,,,,,
    veefre
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    Post by veefre Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:10 pm

    OK, well, like I said, fractional designations simply (usually) are not as precise as decimal dimensions. So my gut feeling is that you have to go by the part number rather than the nominal fractional designation. Better would be if the parts were described using BOTH fractional and decimal dimensions. But even then you'd need to know the tolerance on the decimal dimension... standard for that would be +/- .005" for three decimal places. That might be enough to make one cartridge slip through and another one press fit. So you'd need a tolerance designation as well. I'm sort of guessing these cartridges are made with a very tight fit, so they might be .005 or more larger than the spring hole.

    And to measure the spring hole it would be best to have a gauge pin - which might not be available in that large a size (and would be quite expensive). One could use two smaller gauge pins side by side, but then you're only measuring the linear diameter at any two points. Since the spring eyelet is made by bending the end of a leaf into a cylinder, it might not actually be all that round inside (poor cylindricity). So it might measure larger in one direction than the other.

    Next up would be a bore gauge, preferably with three contact points. Those are also expensive instruments. A snap "telescopic" gauge is quicker if you know how to use one and have a micrometer in the range. A caliper will also measure ID's, but in my experience you really can't depend on them to be accurate for better than .005" for such measurements. If it really matters one could turn a steel rod until it just slips through the eyelet, and then measure the OD of that rod with a micrometer. Of just buy the cartridge that the spring company recommends, cross one's fingers, and give it a try. I'm thinking that's what I'll do.

    As for the rear springs... how odd that a different size cartridge would be used there. Go figure.
    veefre
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    Post by veefre Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:57 pm

    Well I got a late start but just got the passenger side front/rear shackles undone. It is as you say... bushings are 9/16ID about 1-1/8 OD (they are compressed a little). One of the shoulder bolts has a bit of corrosion on it. I scrapped off all the old welded rubber on it, but it's still got some corroded pits and such. So I'm wondering if new shoulder bolts are available.

    donivan65
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    Post by donivan65 Wed Jul 17, 2013 7:52 pm

    Do you have those teflon pads installed between the leafs to stop the noise?,,,,,
    G-Man
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    Post by G-Man Wed Jul 17, 2013 8:09 pm

    Has anyone else have different size eyelet hole on there front 1st gen springs???
    veefre
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    Post by veefre Wed Jul 17, 2013 9:31 pm

    There are some sort of pads between the helper spring and the original spring. Don't know if it's teflon or what.

    Took the van out for a test drive after taking apart, cleaning, and lubing the shackles and bushings. It's quieter, but I think the front cartridges are shot and need to be renewed or replaced with your solution. The shackle bushings are also on their last legs and I'd like to renew all four shackle bolts. There's a shackle kit on-line but the distance between the bolts is slightly different from what's currently on the van: the van distance is 4-1/4". The kit available on-line is 4". But it does say it's for 67-71 G10 vans. Riding 1/4" lower probably wouldn't make a big difference. The thing is, the kit comes with the shackle bolts which I haven't yet found separately.

    The other main source of squeaking is the damn styrofoam sheet insulation a previous owner placed between the inner wall and hardboard paneling on the sides and roof of the van. It can really start squeaking a lot. It's a high pitched squeak, almost a chirp, different from suspension noise. I pulled some of the panels the other week and it helped, but I'm gonna have to pull them all. I think I'll put fiber fill (like pillow or comforter or sleeping bag stuffing) in there instead.

    veefre
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    Post by veefre Fri Jul 19, 2013 3:48 pm

    Well, I think I solved one noise issue. I tested a styrofoam board I took out of the van. It's Insulfoam R-Gard. It has a poly coating on both surfaces, but the cut edges are not coated. And not too surprisingly, while the coated surfaces don't squeak when rubbed against the painted sheet metal of the van, the cut edges sing out like Gypsy Rose Lee in an audition. So... I sealed the edges with standard duct tape and that got rid of the squeaking. Now I just have to get in there, re-install the foam boards, and then give the same treatment to the other 15 or so foam boards still in there. All the boards are behind hard board paneling, so it's a bit laborious to unscrew/remove the paneling to get at the styrofoam boards. But the reduction in squeaking will be worth it. I was a bit concerned about the flammability of the styrofoam, but since it's sandwiched between relatively less flammable hard board and sheet metal, with an extra layer in most places of foil faced bubble wrap between the foam and the hard board, there won't be a lot of opportunity for it to ignite. And the stuff I was considering replacing it with - polyester fiberfill from old pillows - turns out to be quite flammable as well.

    I also ordered up replacement bushings (cartridges, RB99), shackle kits, extra shackle bushings, from SD Springs today. Probably will get them in a week or two. And I will be looking for steel tube stock in the wall thickness and OD to fab up for the better bushing idea that Doni came up with.

    Thanks for all the help.
    donivan65
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    Post by donivan65 Fri Jul 19, 2013 9:03 pm

    I surely would like to know what size those 1 1/8" RB 99 cartridges turn out to be,,,,,,,I think the rear cartridges are 1 1/2",,,,see if you can get a measurement off them,,,,,
    veefre
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    Post by veefre Sat Jul 20, 2013 12:24 am

    Weeelllll, I'll certainly let you know.

    Interestingly, SD Springs sells the RB99 cartridges in sets of four. This would appear to indicate the same size is used front and rear. But on what vehicle, that's the rub.

    I'm not planning on servicing the rear springs at present. They appear to be pretty quiet. Once I fix the styrofoam chorus perhaps the rear springs will make their presence known. When the fronts start to chatter however, just pushing down on the front bumper will elicit the sounds. I haven't noticed that same sort of racket from the rear bumper. Yet.

    veefre
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    Post by veefre Wed Jul 24, 2013 3:49 pm

    Received new rear shackle kits from SD Springs today. They came via USPS - which puts FedEx and UPS to shame. The US Postal Service is almost always quicker for small packages like this. Still waiting on the rest of the order - more shackle bushings and front cartridges - which for some reason is being sent UPS instead of USPS. And that stuff is not scheduled to arrive until next Monday. Go figure!

    Anyway, just measured them with my funky Chinese digital calipers... they seem very close to what the van needs. Maybe 1/8" shorter than what's in there now, but the width at the springs seems like it will be perfect. Most of all the shoulders on the bolts are nice and smooth. I notice there's a light oil on the bolts and shackles. Not sure what kind it is. I may clean it off and replace with CRC synthetic brake caliper grease... When I take the existing ones on the van apart (which I lubed with same last week) I'll see if there's any rubber breakdown. If not it's probably good to go.

    I'll probably wait until the front carts arrive. Last week's servicing of the old shackles, along with lubing the bolts, seems to have quieted them down. I also finished taping the styrofoam on the cargo walls. In the process I discovered a major squeak source: the spare tire. It's old and hard (but still holds air) and sings loud against just about anything, including the hardboard paneling, and even the rubber floor mat in the van. I took an old all cotton bath mat, cut a small hole in the center, and tacked it to the paneling. Then mounted the tire on top of that, with enough draped over the wheel well and the rear spare tire support to stop that source of squeaking. Longer term fix will be new spare (205/75/14), as cheap as possible, as well as carpeting over the hardboard paneling and carpet over the wheel wells and rear tire support. That's for another project another time, though.

    Back to rebuilding a garden bench. It's got cast iron end pieces and back, but the oak boards have decayed to the point where it was about to collapse. Rebuilding them with douglas fir. Stronger than redwood and since the iron is the only thing that contacts the soil it should last as long as the oak. Knock on wood. I have redwood I could use but I'd rather save that for stuff it's really needed for. We'll see!
    veefre
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    Post by veefre Mon Jul 29, 2013 8:19 pm

    OK, well, the RB99 bushings finally arrived just now (around 7 pm).

    Dimensions:

    Outer Sleeve: ID not measurable, 1.134-1.140 OD dia., 3.045 long

    Inner Sleeve: .504-.520 ID, .69-.70 OD, 3.502 long

    A range of dimensions is given because the sleeves are not perfectly round. In the case of the inner sleeve, it's actually split down the length.

    In any case it looks like they should fit. I do notice that there is a bit of an offset between the inner and outer sleeves on three of the four cartridges, with the inner sleeve not evenly pressed into the outer sleeve, varying by as much as .080. I also noticed this uneveness when I inspected the cartridges currently installed in the van.
    veefre
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    Post by veefre Tue Sep 24, 2013 9:29 pm

    Update as of 9/24/13:

    Due to a variety of other pressing matters (like tree removal and then reconstruction of carport roofing) I still haven't gotten around to installing the new bushings and shackles. I still assume they will all fit well, although I have some questions about the new shackle bolts (might be slightly too short).

    The good news is that the CRC synthetic brake grease I used to service the old bushings seems to have done the trick. The front suspension has quieted down to the point where replacing the bushings no longer seems quite so urgent. It will eventually happen, just now for a few weeks yet at the earliest. We can thank the termites for that ;-).

    Your mileage may vary.
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    Post by Space Truckin Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:23 am

    This will be interesting Very Happy 

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