Engine choices for Early Pick up ('61)

Hi.  I'm brand new to this site.  WOW.   So much cool stuff and info.  I need some help deciding on a motor swap.  I live a 7500 feet and work at about 5300 feet.  The 144 and 3 on the tree get me up the mountain at about 40 mph (speed limit is 65mph)
This is NO FUN.  So much so that the truck just sits in the garage.  I have a couple 200's and C-4s.  I'm not sure that's enough though.  302 and C-4?  or 4.0 and AW4 from a Jeep Cherokee?  Initial measurements say it will fit and it would be different. What do you all think.  I look forward to hearing your responses.  Thanks.  Jon

imo 302 and a c-4 mick

Welcome to VV Jon. Those that have more knowledge of what you need to consider with swapping to a larger motor will most likely chime in to get you going in the right direction. I have a 66 that has the full cross member and the thicker frame. As I understand the 61 has a thin frame and small motor mount arms. Those arms may need to be changed to a full crossmember to accommodate a larger/torquing engine. A few things to consider, but not impossible by any means.

The easiest thing to do would be to use the 200, but compensate for your elevation by raising the C/R substantially. That's probably part of the problem with your 144 beside it being a gutless motor anyhow, the elevation is killing your compression. Figure out your dynamic C/R with a calculator that factors in altitude, then bump up the C/R to get to a DCR of 7.7, or whatever you feel is safe @ your lowest altitude.

I've always touted the praise of the Ford 200. Since you say you already have a 200, I would immediately yank that gutless 144 out and try the 200. That's a direct swap and would only cost you time and energy. You will see a remarkable improvement. The 144 doesn't hold a candle to the 200. Nothing wrong with an automatic, but you will suffer some parasitic power loss switching to a C4. My next choice is always a mildly built 200 over a stock 302. Power to weight is the secret here. If you choose to convert to the 302, then be prepared to convert to beefier crossmembers. I'm also new to the Old Econo world, but the guys here will tell you the older units won't support a bunch of power because of the sheet metal.(I also have a 61)

Good Luck Mike

there are worlds of difference that will be noticed if you swap the 200 in there. it's a great engine, with plenty of power for your van up.

if you are going to go through the trouble of doing an engine trans swap do it right and go with the 302 / c4. Done right it makes the truck perform better then you would have ever thought and makes it a lot more FUN to drive.
That mountain will turn into a mole hill!

The 200 is the biggest engine that will bolt in. Even then it's pushing the limits of the stock engine mounts and frame of an Early Econoline. The 302 is a great engine and will perform excellent in your truck but it opens a whole new can of worms. New mounts, New rear axle, New trans. Bigger radiator, Bigger doghouse. ( it will fit in the stock doghouse but it's too tight to let the air circulate around the engine thus plugging the hole behind the radiator stopping the airflow) It's all about your skills and budget. There are many here that can help with whatever way you go. It's all been done before and it's pretty straight forward.

Duane in Tennessee

If you decide on the C4 trans be sure to shop for one with a short tail shaft that came in the trucks. Not the long shaft that came in the cars. Short shaft fits better with a longer driveshaft. I made the long shaft mistake and it was a hassle to swap to a short tailstock.

I went the 289 C4 route and so far have no regrets but I am doing way more than I initially planned. Might do a panel van in the future. If I do I think I'll go more stock to minimize the size of the project and go 300-6 from an econoline if possible, non modified C4 from an econoline, non modified ford 9 again from an econoline.  Again no regrets on the current choices but I am running into that "am I ever going to finish this project" thoughts fairly often.  It keeps me going I guess. She'll be really cool when she's done. If I ever get done. lol.

Brad

Thanks Everyone.  I'm a little surprised there were no votes for the 4 liter though.   But it seems fitment isn't only one thing to consider.
Tuck, I've ended up with 2 C-4s with the long tail shaft.  How hard IS the conversion to the short tail shaft ?  
With respect to air flow around the 302 that econopoor (great name BTW) mentioned, how is that addressed?  Is that why I see holes cut in the front of the bed on some converted trucks?
I'm aware of the parasitic drag from an automatic, but thought the gearing would be better spaced than the manual.  Right now 1st and 2nd feel very close together and 3rd is a mile away.  With the limited power I have now, I have to wrap out the motor in 2nd and throw it in 3rd as fast as I can to try to stay in the motor's "power band" while going up the mountain.

The short tailstock unbolts and slips right out the back of a C4. The rear bearing holds the shaft in place.  Long tailstock does not have a rear bearing it's got a bushing and what holds the shaft from sliding out is a lock ring in the core of the trans. You have to take 99% of the trans completely apart to get to that lock ring. I got a quote from my local trans shop of $700 to make the swap. I ended up doing it myself. I was proud of myself for getting through it and I'm confident I got it right but I haven't put power to it yet so we'll see.
Now that I have room for a longer driveshaft I ended up pushing my motor back a bit. I'm either going to put an over sized steel hump over the C4 that is now partly in the bed and the biggest radiator I can shoehorn in OR I'm very seriously thinking of putting the radiator behind the motor like you see in the off road trucks. I'd make it look semi normal by hiding it all in a diamond plate tool box in back. ( with a fans on the sides ) With no radiator I'll be able to put a bench seat in and I'll make a wider doghouse so it can breath better.
See what I mean I made this a real project. Having fun and I'll be happy in the end but it's going to be a big 6 next time. It would have been a lot easier. I had a 300 6 in an F250 with a utility bed that was loaded with lots of heavy tools. The big 6 pulled it all around no problem. Good motor! If I did that on this project I'd be done already. Oh well. Can't beat the way a v8 with a cam sounds...and runs. It's all good.

The best way to solve the airflow problem is to widen the doghouse. The sides can be extended about 4 inches on each side by cutting the floor back to the frame rail and adding bump outs on the doghouse sides. There are many ways to do this. Use a Chevy or Dodge box, make them from scratch, I've seen some add triangle pieces to the stock side to kick them out some. I've seen the rounded pieces from a new gas tank welded to the sides. And of course the tunnel from the doghouse to the bed.



This is what I am working on for my own V-8 conversion. It uses 67-70 Chevy sides and the stock 65-67 Econoline front  rear and lid. The Chevy V-8 box also used a cross flow radiator the works great in V-8 Econo's.



With this set up the Econoline will lose the inside seat brace and the seat will now bolt directly to the doghouse.

Duane in Tennessee

Thanks guys.  Maybe a 300 would be an easier choice after all.  I figured it would be too long.  I couldn't find a thread on a 300 installation though.  Vic seems to know a lot about swaps, but mostly V-8 stuff from what I've seen.  Know anyone whose installed a 300 in an early?  
Tuck, good job on the trans.  I never would have guessed it would be that involved.  I'm not sure I'm man enough to tear into an auto tranny. It's filled with black magic red fluid! Jon

I almost forgot, Duane. Thanks for the photo and explanation on the dog house differences!! I like your solution. It will look factory when you're done.

A 300 would be an easy swap if you had a 65-67 with a 240... but you have a '61 and a  couple 200's laying around   , in a weekend you could be running Or you could find a 240 crossmember and motor mounts/backets or make a crossmember and mounts. Find a 9" rear end or modify something else, and get the drive shaft and tranny while your searching. Figure out how to modify/weld the shift mech in the column to convert or come up with a floor shift for the C4. Get a late early doghouse or modify yours and at some point you will have a truck with a 300, which is a great motor. I've got one in my 4x4 pickup, been from here to Indiana and back FULLY loaded, no problems. Or same scenario have a 302, whatever. I have no doubt that that little truck will run hard with a descent 200 in it. Take your best motor, swap the cam for a mild performance one, swap to big log head if need be and shave the head to get the DCR up for your altitude, do some diy port work and 2-barrel mod, put some headers on it and a descent carb. Keep the manual and drive it. All cheaper and quicker than any other option. It comes down to when do you want to use this thing and how much time and money do you really want to throw at it to get what you're after.

I agree with SETHG. Don't forget to install a recurved DSll Distributor. Fattens the power band and makes a world of difference in a 200. You'll be smokin the tires.
Mike

300 or=?? 302 & a turbo!! @ that altitude!! Fun,Fun,Fun!!!   

Mike, Seth thanks for the sage advice. I'll put some $ into one of my 200s and go that route. I'm glad I stumbled onto this site. Jon