Engine Rebuilding Question-Is this situation acceptable?

Looking for advice for most of you have been around the engine block a few times.

My guy locally quoted me a price to do a rebuild.  I don't like to specify, but it was $1500, which is a good chunk of change for me and a large part of my budget.

The first time I went to see it apart, he explained to me that the valve springs would be extra if they needed it.  This was the first I knew of any chance of it costing more.  He ended up finding that the camshaft was toast and could not be effectively re-worked/reused.  He also found that the cam was no good and replaced it and the springs with a kit.

After several weeks of me requesting various other items to be done, I suggested we go over the costs and current status.

I found that he had come up with a higher quote for extra machining time and that I was also paying another $600 for internal engine related parts (and a new balancer) above the original quote.

After I took issue with the cost of the extra machine work and overall motor work, he knocked down the extra machine costs by 30% since he hadn't mentioned them to me (obviously what he had added for the extra work)  but I'm still overall $600 more for a motor rebuild than the original quote.  He claims that his machine time/labor is now at his cost.  He added $25 to the camshaft price even though it was an unexpected add on.

Crate 350's in stock mode seem to run $2,000.  Should he have known right away that this motor would need all these things once he took it apart, and, if so, just advised me to get a new motor?  He readily admits that his competition is a crate motor and that he has to be less.  I went with him because he was more affordable all the way around.

It seems I am now paying more than the cost of a new motor and I don't think I should have to.  I was given the original quote and presumed that included anything related to internal motor work. I made it clear that I am a novice and know very little about mechanicals.

It was not explained to me any differently until after work had begun and even then, I had no idea we would end up over $600 more.  Even if common practice, it was never explained to me that it COULD run more than his quote.  He did the same thing to me regarding my rust repairs.  When I questioned him, he said the quote was to patch the rust and paint, NOT do metal work which is extra.  He has since relinquished that part and is doing the entire paint and metal work as quoted.  

Is this standard/common when rebuilding a motor in terms of running into surprises, even after the motor is open and apart?  I called a local machine shop and asked for the list of things they do when rebuilding and all of these things other than a balancer would be covered as part of their rebuild.

After all the bad taste I've had over my van from the seller, I was not looking to have a bad experience with this overhaul and I'm having deja vu all over again...I don't think his intention is to screw me over, I think it is more of a case of finding this was more work than he quoted and trying to cover his low quote.

Am I being unreasonable or should this be expected even if not explained to me prior?

Most?? =Many Rebuilders will always try & hose u. Being Nice i am -so read what u may into it!!= here in my area =i always get that in writing- just due to what ur experiencing!! here= i pay around a total for 4200.00 for vat cleaning all parts, bore & hone & piston fit!! Heads rebuilt are generally about $350.00 a pair fro me -thats chev small block heads the old style fulie heads too = 2.02 intakes ect. with screw in studs & good springs. Ive had rebuilders talk all about xtra machine work & honing with a torque plate & x tra costs - that usually a regular street motor doesnt ever need! careful!!Now where the costs go up is -i put all my engines together too!! everyone - yet when u pay someone to do that for u -it can get costly. Look in jegs & summits online for crate engines & see ur local dealer also-what ever engine type ur building! To me a finished engine - a rebuilder has done with nothing super special should run around 1100-1500.bux usually in my area a rebuilt crate engine can be had for 850.00 unless its some special aluminum head / block V8 type!! just be careful!!

i'm sorry for all of your troubles. hopefully, this will all be resolved and not sour your feelings for your van. with that being said, i don't know of any engine builders around here that do a complete rebuild on an engine without a new cam and lifter set. i'm not saying that it doesn't happen when a buddy has to freshen up his engine, or just re ring it to get him by. but no place that does this as their business.
it should have been included in the original price in my opinion.

Comparing the cost of a Crate engine to a DIY or your favorite mechanic who doesn't do it "all" the time is apples and oranges. Surprises always pop up and you are paying somebody for their knowledge and ability to deal with an unknown as compared to someone on a "factory" type setting that picks up a prepared ready to go part and bolts it in. Machine work? That is always going to be a variable and can be the most expensive part of a DIY re-build especially on a high miler engine. Should he have known? Probably should have checked on the option up front. Around here getting a set of SBC heads redone with some extra work would be about 400$, boring about 12$ a hole plus line bored,decking and all that jazz. The wash and flush after machining would be on top of that and you still want to double check to make sure it was done right. Add all the new possibly fun parts and you can top 3500$ in a heartbeat. Is he gouging you? Probably not. Off the cuff price quotes are not isolated to the mechanical side of life. A bad experience with an overhaul would be having it grenade after a couple thousand miles or sooner. jm2c

Digz wrote:Comparing the cost of a Crate engine to a DIY or your favorite mechanic who doesn't do it "all" the time is apples and oranges. Surprises always pop up and you are paying somebody for their knowledge and ability to deal with an unknown as compared to someone on a "factory" type setting that picks up a prepared ready to go part and bolts it in. Machine work? That is always going to be a variable and can be the most expensive part of a DIY re-build especially on a high miler engine. Should he have known? Probably should have checked on the option up front. Around here getting a set of SBC heads redone with some extra work would be about 400$, boring about 12$ a hole plus line bored,decking and all that jazz. The wash and flush after machining would be on top of that and you still want to double check to make sure it was done right. Add all the new possibly fun parts and you can top 3500$ in a heartbeat. Is he gouging you? Probably not. Off the cuff price quotes are not isolated to the mechanical side of life. A bad experience with an overhaul would be having it grenade after a couple thousand miles or sooner. jm2c

Amen Digz!

Digz wrote:Comparing the cost of a Crate engine to a DIY or your favorite mechanic who doesn't do it "all" the time is apples and oranges. Surprises always pop up and you are paying somebody for their knowledge and ability to deal with an unknown as compared to someone on a "factory" type setting that picks up a prepared ready to go part and bolts it in. Machine work? That is always going to be a variable and can be the most expensive part of a DIY re-build especially on a high miler engine. Should he have known? Probably should have checked on the option up front. Around here getting a set of SBC heads redone with some extra work would be about 400$, boring about 12$ a hole plus line bored,decking and all that jazz. The wash and flush after machining would be on top of that and you still want to double check to make sure it was done right. Add all the new possibly fun parts and you can top 3500$ in a heartbeat. Is he gouging you? Probably not. Off the cuff price quotes are not isolated to the mechanical side of life. A bad experience with an overhaul would be having it grenade after a couple thousand miles or sooner. jm2c

Joe, this guy does it all the time.  He started off working in a machine shop.  My issue was that I was quoted a price that changed.  I took on this project based on that quote.  I don't have unlimited funds.  Crate motor aside, he is charging more than quoted.  I believe the items needed doing, but e expected a finished product for $1500 as quoted.  Had I known otherwise from the start,  I wouldn't have an issue.

It feels like that situation where a low quote draws you in and then you get killed with all the extras. He said he hand washed, etc the block to keep oil chambers clean or something like that. I trust your opinion, just wasn't disclosed upfront.

Thanks, Twin Pilot, for always helping out. You guys are pros.

It has always been my experience that a quoted price has always been just an estimate & only a time or two has the final cost been lower than the quote. I have rebuilt several engines & spent $2000+ on machine shop fees along with all new parts for the rebuild & that was a friend and I doing the rebuild & installation. I could of bought a crate engine for less money but with buying a engine that has been built by someone else you don't know what corners they might of cut to make more profit. I myself would rather to spend a little more money & have the piece of mind knowing what I am getting. I know that crate engines have warranty but if you get a dud you lose money paid on installation & labor & have to pay again for labor!

From my stand= Thanks for the compliment. are u @ any stage that u can  go elsewhere? ?? how much works done?? Maybe explain your situation & thinking to him?? See what can be done ??  No one ever uses the same old cams too. The engine builders all buy all the parts usually in bulk from  mfg's / parts wholesalers too- Thats where they make the profit-too! as they're all fighting against each other for those sales!! After all - =when it comes to engine builders- were usually not looking for  a Race engine builder that does nascar engines. we just want a quality engine that will last us & provide the power to get our rides down the street & bne totally =Reliable!! Lasting us a LONGGG TIME!!

PS: if the builder is giving any warranty?? get it on paper too!!

I can't speak for this particular shop, I don't know what they included in the quote. However, this is why I don't do work for other people any more. When you start a rebuild there is absolutely no way you can anticipate what you are going to find.

With 50 year old engines there is a good chance that the block will be cracked, a head will be cracked, the crank may already be .040 under, and the list just goes on and on. All you have to sell is your time. I can tell some one how long I think it will take if things go well, and what it might cost if the parts are all rebuild-able. When people want a quote they want the re-builder to take all of the risk. They want the quote based on the best case, and then seem to forget that there is a worst case to. They also lose sight of the fact that if the parts can't be used, they are getting new parts instead of used ones. It isn't fair to try to put the re-builder on the hook for any eventuality that might come up. If you want to know the price for a rebuilt engine, then buy a rebuilt engine. If YOU want to gamble that rebuilding what you have will cost less, that is your choice. If you ask a re-builder to guarantee a maximum price for the rebuild, and they accept the bet, then I hope you are both lucky.

Wow - deja vu...

AZ SuperVan wrote:I can't speak for this particular shop, I don't know what they included in the quote.  However, this is why I don't do work for other people any more.  When you start a rebuild there is absolutely no way you can anticipate what you are going to find.  

With 50 year old engines there is a good chance that the block will be cracked, a head will be cracked, the crank may already be .040 under, and the list just goes on and on.  All you have to sell is your time.  I can tell some one how long I think it will take if things go well, and what it might cost if the parts are all rebuild-able.  When people want a quote they want the re-builder to take all of the risk.  They want the quote based on the best case, and then seem to forget that there is a worst case to.  They also lose sight of the fact that if the parts can't be used, they are getting new parts instead of used ones.  It isn't fair to try to put the re-builder on the hook for any eventuality that might come up.   If you want to know the price for a rebuilt engine, then buy a rebuilt engine.  If YOU want to gamble that rebuilding what you have will cost less, that is your choice.  If you ask a re-builder to guarantee a maximum price for the rebuild, and they accept the bet, then I hope you are both lucky.

Thanks, Bill.  This whole thing from purchase to now has been a learning experience.  Not to beat the already dead horse, but I just didn't know, nor was I told, that there might be additional expenses.  I believe that it is the job of the builder/repair person to tell me this upfront.  Then I don't feel like I'm getting jacked.

We have an estate sale company and if we see a ton of work before we start, we build in a set up fee of $500-$1,000 because we have spent a great deal of time before we have sold the first item.  So I get it.   I also feel better now that you guys have opened my eyes a bit.  I don't think he intended to hurt me here, he just failed to let me know it COULD run more.  That would have avoided this all.  I was given a quote over the phone after he visited of a price for paint, rebuild and interior/exterior paint.

I didn't ask for an estimate.  I asked how much it would cost do do this and that.  If that is all I had budgeted/saved, then that would be all I could spend.

Handivanman, The crate motor, not knowing what you get thing, also opens my eyes and makes total sense.  This guy is the rebuilder, mechanic and paint man, so he will be my guy all the way through. He will stand behind his product, so I'm not worried there.  

Appreciate the comments as I feel the agitation slipping away other than not having $600 to spend elsewhere...

After his quote on paint and body work went up, I would have looked for someone else. That being said, you have learned a very expensive lesson. ALWAYS get it in writting. !!!!!!! Ask a lot of questions, Is that price for everything?, Is there other things that might raise the quote?, ect. I hope this experience hasn't soured your thoughts to the point that you won't be able to enjoy your van once it is done and you are driving it with a smile from ear to ear. Life is too short to let bad things linger in our thoughts. Hopefully you will be on the road soon and the bad will be forgotten.

I recently bought a manufactured engine from a reputable engine rebuild company, comes with a 7 year, 100,000 mile warranty... whatever that means. The price was fair but, I knew I needed more than just an engine if I wanted satisfaction and trust. Add a new harmonic balancer, a water pump, radiator rebuild and new hoses, belts. A carburetor and an alternator, etc, The costs can go up quick. Good luck!

If  thats a circuit breaker on the feed wire from the positive battery cable on the solenoid,,,,,,  you are heading for  trouble,,,,those circuit breakers click on and off when something shorts out and eventually the points stick together and you have a fire,,,,,,at least a fusible link will burn out and disconnect the battery,,,,,you trying to run the alternator output through that breaker?.........

No Doni, it was to break the circuit in the event of a failure, my mechanic misunderstood. I will change it to a fusable link. I am still breaking the motor in. I am suffering from an overheating problem I need to address now.

Its just like if you put a 30 amp circuit breaker in the alternator line,,,,and you  pull out in front of a semi and the alternator decides to send 32 amps to the battery, thats trips the circuit breaker and cuts off the power to the coil and the engine dies,,,,,I just seen too many problems with circuit breakers,,,,,,,mostly fires,,,,,,,,

When you bring in an engine to rebuild, both parties are assuming that this was a decent running assembly of parts that only needs basic rebuild procedures to get back into decent shape. If you bring in something 'unknown' or worse (blew up, badly overheated, run out of oil, knocking, burning oil like a mosquito fogger, dug out of a mud pit), the assumption is not there any more.

He should have explained (and covered his backside in writing) that costs could increase. He should have outlined a teardown and inspection to be performed before going ahead, and discussed total determined costs at that point. The problem is, many people HATE having a cost to find out how much. This has driven businesses to try to estimate the unknown.
In some states by law, he should have provided a new estimate and had you sign it before going over the initial cost of the first estimate.

Why could it cost more? Let's just look at one part. The engine block. Normal basic rebuild is to strip down, clean, inspect for cracks, check cylinder bore sizes, check main bore sizes and ensure they are straight. Replace oil galley plugs, core plugs and cam bearings. Almost always include a bore and hone on cylinders. May include a few bucks more for common and/or unseen issues. This is a basic, typical, no issues checklist.

Problems (additional costs) can include;
any of the many threaded holes having a broken bolt or damaged threads
any of the locating dowels damaged or missing
any of the cylinder bores cracked, misaligned, oversize
the cam bores misaligned or damaged
the lifter bores damaged or oversize
the crankshaft main bores worn, damaged, misaligned
the mounting area for mounts, pumps, starter, seals, covers damaged
the cylinder head deck(s) need machining

Note that most of these will not prevent an engine from running, but must be addressed when rebuilding.

This does not include many common "blueprinting" extras that can double the costs or require a different block and start over.
Some 'blueprinting' on the block would include;
Are the cylinder bores perpendicular to the crankshaft and at 90 degrees from each other?
Lifter bores?
Was every threaded hole checked and cleaned with a thread chaser (not a tap)?
Is the cam parallel to the crankshaft?
Were the cylinders sonic checked for thickness?
Were they bored and honed with a torque plate?
Was it at temp?
Were all oil gallerys deburred?
Were all machined surface edges deburred?
Was all casting flash removed and the edge smoothed?

You can see how having a professional do a lot more work adds up.

BTW, the reason there isn't a machine shop for every 10K people like there was in the 60s is two-fold.
The average engine lasts much longer and the average person wants the cheapest deal. This means most won't rebuild, just refinance a need (transportation) and that the centralized rebuilders who set up an assembly line rebuild (cheaper in volume) in a low income area (cheaper in costs) can undercut the professional living in more expensive areas (single unit pricing at a reasonable labor rate). This is one reason why wages have not kept up with inflation or productivity since the 1970s, unless you are in a C-suite position.