Starting issues

After not driving for 3 days and having been cranked on Sunday, she cranked up with no open choke on the second crank today. Drove to the USPS, stopped for 5 min or less, drove to another spot, stayed about 30 minutes, went down the road and parked for about ten minutes. Got in, wouldn't start. Belts turn, fan (on low from start) comes on. Won't turn over. Crank gets weaker as I try a bit more. Tried several times over 5 minutes or so, then put fan switch to middle position. Cranked up. Could be a coincidence, could be related.

The guy helping me with my van thought it possibly was the starter and would act normally when not hot and it cooled down a bit. Drove it straight over to him. He tried it, cranked fine most times with a little hesitation on some cranks. All in all, we tried it about 15 times or more.

Any suggestions/ideas? This happened last week from a cold start and later in the day when hot. When I used my battery charger it would make it crank. Took it in, and the battery and charging systems all checked out fine. The starter cable was supposedly loose, but perhaps that wasn't the issue and this is intermittent.

I'd only driven it twice (including today) since getting it back. Temps today were mild 70's. Fan is hooked for ignition start. Alternator is 61A.

(Don't know that this has anything to do with it, but I smelled a heavy gas smell that I had not noticed prior and that's why it hadn't been driven since Saturday because I needed to check for gas leak.)


Any suggestions/ideas? I have confidence in this mechanic as he says so many things that I read on this forum and is a long time GM owner and fanatic.

See about getting the amperage draw checked on the starter. The gas smell most likely is a little boil out from the carb, that will make it not fire right up sometimes but shouldnt have much to do with a slow cranking issue. Also double check that all the grounds are adequate and not corroded. should be a battery to engine ground and engine to chassis.

OK from experience - many times - id look @ starter - yet good idea to check battery for a open circuit - wont show till under a load sometimes . now the bad thing is this - ive had bad starters hand up on crank circuit when bad & fry the wiring. Yet can also just be a starter solenoid also - #1 put a load test on batt after charged up. 32 pull starter & hace checked. #3 replace solenoid if all else shows good
- and dont forget key switch too??????????????

Twinpilot001 wrote:OK from experience - many times - id look @ starter - yet good idea to check battery for a open circuit - wont show till under a load sometimes . now the bad thing is this - ive had bad starters hand up on crank circuit when bad & fry the wiring. Yet can also just be a starter solenoid also - #1 put a load test on batt after charged up. 32 pull starter & hace checked. #3 replace solenoid if all else shows good
- and dont forget key switch too??????????????

I thought it was important to mention this has a remote starter solenoid, so don't know if heat soak would be a factor. Wiring to fan relays is brand new and got hot to the touch prior. In fact, it had melted prior to replacement.

Where exactly is the fan power source drawn from?

It sounds to me like you have no problem cranking it over its the start up that sometimes is a no go, correct?

Where exactly is the hei distributer getting its power from? It is an HEI correct?

M1D

starter cable loose? that would do it. clean and tighten your cables and grounds. as digz said, neg. on battery to motor and clean connections.

m1dadio wrote:Where exactly is the fan power source drawn from?

It sounds to me like you have no problem cranking it over its the start up that sometimes is a no go, correct?

Where exactly is the hei distributer getting its power from? It is an HEI correct?

M1D

MD1, if I understand your question, it cranks and I can watch the belts and pulleys turn, the fan comes on, but it won't start. It isn't the "click, click, click" sound where nothing happens like when the battery is dead and you just hear the starter clicking. It just won't turn over.

If I continue to try repeat key turns, the pulley/belt action lessens and it sounds weaker, almost like I'm draining it and it's struggling to even turn the pulleys. I'm not sure if this makes any sense, but on one of my no go cranks, it made a somewhat high pitched sound like the sound your car would make when the door was left open or that might come on just before you ignite the engine when turning the key. Perhaps that is just the old car sound that happened to work when it normally does not?

Yes, HEI, stock. I had asked that early on. I don't know if that means stock original (40+ years old) or just stock replacement with no upgrade.)

As far as the fan is concerned, it starts with the ignition and turns off with the ignition. If you can explain more what you are asking in terms of what powers it, I will find out. I know my mechanic thought it was powered by the battery but was surprised to find that it was ignition operated, if that makes sense. Again, the fan comes on when I turn the key.

He only replaced the melted fan wiring and I'm not sure he had dug into it any further at the time as they were pretty busy and he wanted to get that done so I could get back to driving it before the weekend.

(MD1, fyi, still going to order the relay setup for the fan, but want to make sure I can access all the necessary ports. One port has what may be JB weld or hardened material around port bolt and he is concerned it may be difficult to remove or had a possible crack at some point that may have required that type of sealer.)

little confusion on wording. if the belts are moving, it is turning over. if moving slower than normal, then its somewhere in the charging/starter system (that is what i understood you to mean) if turning over/cranking, belts moving as normal but not firing, then it could be ignition or carb/choke.if the loose cable wasnt the problem, buy a cheap v.o.m. (voltmeter) and check your voltage at battery next time it happens. if its 13-14 volts and still cranks slow, i would suspect the starter. you can bypass (jump) the selonoid to rule that out but my experience has been they work, or they dont, no in between.

jrinaman wrote:little confusion on wording. if the belts are moving, it is turning over. if moving slower than normal, then its somewhere in the charging/starter system (that is what i understood you to mean) if turning over/cranking, belts moving as normal but not firing, then it could be ignition or carb/choke.if the loose cable wasnt the problem, buy a cheap v.o.m. (voltmeter) and check your voltage at battery next time it happens. if its 13-14 volts and still cranks slow, i would suspect the starter. you can bypass (jump) the selonoid to rule that out but my experience has been they work, or they dont, no in between.

Just to confirm, weak, slow moving belts. Weak moving, weak sounding. Turning over according to above description. The gauge today was measuring between 11.75-12 volts when it wouldn't start and the key turned on without cranking, but he isn't certain the gauge is accurate.

Is it a coincidence that turning the fan to off position made a difference?

Thanks for the help.

no, the fan draws current too. 11.75 volts is marginal, turning off the fan was just enough to start it. problem occurred after sitting ten minutes so not likely draining battery while parked. if alternator is good, it is most likely a bad connection. i chased a similar problem on my car for a year, new optima battery, high output alternator, gear reduced starter, checked current draw on every circuit, voltage and resistance from battery to starter and never found it. i spent $3.00 on a ground cable and never had another problem.

Lets clarify a couple things.

"turning over" and "cranking" are terns used to describe the starter doing its thing cranking over the engine.

When the ignition fires and the engine runs that is usually refered to as "fireing up" or "starting" or "running"

When you are cranking the engine over, battery voltage should not drop below 9.5 or 10 volts at the lowest. If it does then either the battery is weak, the wires or connections are poor or the starter is drawing too much current. This can prevent starting because the ignition system wil not get enough (left over) power to create a good enough spark for start up.

You might notice on newer vehicles that the head lights and heater fan and everything else shuts off during the cranking and starting of the engine. This is because the starter draws soo much power that all availible left over electrical power must go to the ignition systen only.

Which brings me to why I am asking about the fan. That fan draws alot of current even on low and should not be running during the start up of the engine because of how much current it draws. This could be a particularly greater problem if its electricaly connected in such a way that it is robing the power supply to the ignition distributer system. (you did say that one time you turned it off and then the engine started up).

The other part of this that concerns me is this theory a few people have had about an external starter relay suposed to be adding some benifit. I quite frankly have studied that and can see no reasonable understanding of how that can improve anything especialy considereing it just adds in more equipment and wiring to cause more potential failure points and additional wiring problems. And then theres the part about "what on during cranking?" the factory starter solinoid provides for nothing else getting electrical power during the starting except for the ignition system ONLY!. when a second external relay is added in were provisions made to retain this very nessesary funtion? Or is there now other electricl items drawing power at the same time during start up?

You have the HEI ignition system. That is great, it is not stock, it is from the mid 70's and is way better especially for starting and engine. The HEI has few components and rarely causes any problem however I have seen the rare time when the moduel inside those distributers caused intermitant starting but that is not commun.

If you are buying that fan relay set up you should also be following this.
https://vintage-vans.forumotion.com/t12244-cool-down-that-engine

as far as metal set in one of the ports, lets see a picture?

M1D

For me the remote solenoid works out well because it gets rid of all but 1 wire to the starter and moves the usual power pick up point to a hopefully more accessible location. Made it easier to work around long tube headers. On a stock exhaust or huggers it may not be that big of a deal.

it sounds like the brushes on the starter could be worn.That could cause problems when the starter is warm as opposed to cold starts

I had the same problem years ago, after swapping out a 6 for an 8!!! The headers were heating up my starter, when hot and it would not start! Heat Soak....was the issue! Installed a small High-Torque starter....solved the problem! A "heat shield" on it would work for less $$$.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/PWM-9200/

M1 is correct- ill still go to starter & as we do forget sometimes ?- the new hei & other ignition systems =MUST!! have a specific RPMK when cranking to work properly. Remember thyis - chech these 1st> Always - Compression, Fuel, & spark. Happy Vannin

Thanks for all the suggestions. As I mentioned, this was having a similar issue last week and the first time was after trying to start it the very first time in the morning.

Yesterday wasn't very hot, but the problem actually occurred after stopping for a while. Even when it wouldn't start, the thermo was showing 160. I realize the starter could be hotter, but that is a pretty mild temp for the van. I'd lean less towards heat soak based on that info.

And, just to refresh, two times that I had the problem last week I was able to use my battery charger on the jump mode and it started it. Once right away and the second time it slowly turned over and struggled but finally ran.

The last time I just mentioned was before taking it into the shop when it was running pretty hot and when I found out the wires on the fan fried. That is when the loose starter cable was tightened. Could be two different things or still the same...

Starting with the fan off is obviously the thing to do, but wondering why it started 3 other times with the fan on before this happened?

I think some one else recomended a starter draw test and a battery load test. I think I would check those items first no matter what it is.

M1D

Van finally acted up for my guy today. He used jumpers to get a solid ground test, no issues or correction. Even checked the solinoid while it wouldn't start. Didn't make a difference. Replaced starter with Remy. Cranks right up and I can tell it turns on faster and sharper. It never turned on that immediately. Glad to be running down the road. Thanks for all the help!

see how easy that was??= Happy Vannin

Since getting a new starter, the old starting problem seems to have disappeared. I'm not getting that weak turnover. I am now having a problem with the van not starting right up. First time in the a.m. takes several attempts. Choke has no affect and I'd say pulling it out might make it worse (not positive.) Once it starts, it seems to get easier on later restarts, but still will take a time or three.

Today, it would not want to stay running after getting it to start. I'd give it gas to try to keep if from cutting off when on. That wouldn't work a time or two, then I finally just threw it into drive and made it go. To be clear, it was turning over fine, just not turning on. Then, when on, it wanted to cut off, even after giving it some gas.

It idles perfectly and steadily at times, and then another time shortly after it idles up and down. When looking at voltage meter (these are not high end gauges, for what it's worth, but the temp gauge is within 3 degrees), the voltage bounces somewhere between a little above 10 volts and a little less than 11 volts. It bounces with the up and down idling.

I should mention that it was having a sporadic up and down idle issue prior to the starter replacement and my mechanic quickly tweaked the carb before I drove it off after the starter replacement. Doesn't seem to have helped and actually seems worse.

Any suggestions/thoughts? Thanks.

What do you have for a carburator? What intake manifold is it? Does the voltage stay low all the time or just when you start it and its idling? Is it a 1 wire alternator? Are the guages SunPro ? and if you tap the guage does it change? What spark plugs is it running and what do they look like on inspection? Where does the voltage guage pick up its reading from? A true low voltage problem may mess with the HEI. Mine is terribly cold blooded and I have to help keep it running for a bit before it will sit on its own and idle. Sometimes it is the quirks of the aftermarket stuff we have bolted on and we have to keep tweaking things to get something we can live with. From what I have seen there are no 2 engine swaps that have been done exactly the same, so we have to figure out what we got best we can. Maybe I have missed it but do you have gallery or maybe put a thread in members showcase so we can see any pics in one spot?

Digz, here are gallery photos I just created. Quick answers to what I know: 3 wire, Sun Pro gauges, HEI, Edlebrock 4 barrel. Not sure of the manifold. I will check the voltage, plugs and gauges when I return home. I know my mechanic commented he wasn't sure the voltage was reading properly. I want to trouble shoot this myself so that I can learn. Only had other stuff done because I didn't have time to kill and needed the van.

https://vintage-vans.forumotion.com/t25192-lazarusvan-s-1964-chevy-g-10

For the hard starting problem - id bet its a fuel flooding problem - float maybe has a piece of trash under it - usually when turned off still floods the intake area.take a look & replace all fuel filters -esp. If one is inside the carb inlet??

Thanks, TP. I will check. At least one fuel filter is what I would say is inline. A silver, made in China job. Any brand better than another? I know the glass types are no good.

I know Greg told me not to give it gas before cranking, which I don't. Voltage when key is turned to accessory is dead around 11.

I just cranked her up first time, no choke, fan off. She turned over and on, and then right off. Cranked back and ran immediately. Pre-crank was 11 volts on accessory. I turned it off and left for 5 minutes.

Came back down, turned to accessory, voltage around 11. Cranked and started and was idling at 12. Gave her some gas, voltage jumped to 13 and stayed there. Turned off, turned key to accessory, voltage when to 13.

When fan was turned on low, voltage drops to a 10/10.5 volts. Fan on high, a little closer to 11 volts.

I also noticed that when I gave it about quarter pedal, it seemed to sound almost stuck in a racing idle. Don't know if this is normal or not. Then when I gave it a harder, forceful rev like you are showboating in park, it calmed back down. For what any of that is worth..

Would this be causing the up and down idling as well?

Best Fuel Filter is one that mounts to firewall ( or another place -frame) and has a replaceable filter. Mapa has them & some also on ebay too , Voltage isnt causing the rpm to raise & lower. Fuel related only i believe. Pull the aircleaner off - while running & then shut engine off after it has heated up-if possible. when turned off = immediately(careful) look into the carb & see if fuel is dripping into the carb?? Irf so thats float lever -or-?? a piece of trash under the needle ( seat areas) . Can be trash from tank or even a piece of deteroiated fuel line ? Also corosion thats broken loose also. These new fuels we have =all?? have a fuel cleaning agent & if the van is new or has set a long time it may just be cleaning all the stuff out (loose ). Ill look on ebay & find a fuel filter for ya & post soon- Take a look.