Bogging Issues

Good evening everyone. Y'all have been super helpful in the past, so I figured I'd just write down what I am experiencing and hopefully this rings a bell with someone. So thank you ahead of time for even taking the time to read this.

BACKSTORY      
        I have a 62 Falcon Clubwagon that has a 200 in it. Specifically a 68 Block paired with a 69 head. It also has a Carter YF Carb on it. Ok, those are the facts.
       Long story short, I bought my van 7 years ago. Since the day I got her,  she purrs like a cat when she is running. I worked on it a bit, just small fix up type stuff though as I'm trying to learn how to work on this. I've never had much knowledge in this realm, and I had always wanted an old van and thought it would be a great way to learn. Low and behold I  had a series of things happen that kept me away from working on it. During the this break in time for me, all of the gas went bad in it. So I cleaned the tank and steel brake lines out. I put in new rubber brake lines where needed, replaced the fuel filter and even added as secondary inline fuel filter just as an extra precaution. I also bought a carb rebuild kit and took on the task of that. I have a friend that had the carb body and pieces "ultrasonic" cleaned I believe its called.
      I get the carb back together, and have a mechanic friend be by my side for the big day. With a few tiny adjustments, she roared to life. I couldn't have been happier.

CURRENT ISSUE
      This was a few weeks ago. Today I took it out, and about 20 minutes into my drive, she started bogging and stalled. It did this once earlier this week as the initial bog happened in about the same amount of time from when I left the house. The only difference was, that time I was pretty much back at my house, and it only did that bog once. I was able to get it home almost immediately after.  So today, I was about 20 minutes from home when the first bog and stall hit. I let the van sit for a minute or 2 and she started right back up. Same good purr as usual. Then about 5 minutes later it bogged again and stalled. I repeated this process about every 5 minutes and limped her back to my house. The longer the amount of time I'd let her sit after she stalled, the easier time it would have starting back up. If I tried to start it right after, it was almost like she was out of gas. But if I gave it some time, it would perk right up and be ready to roll.
       So when she is running, its a charm, but for some reason its doing this. I'm not that knowledgeable with this stuff, though I do have my own speculations about it. But there are always some on here that know almost everything inside and out. So I brought my issue to you guys for help. If anyone has any ideas about this. Please let me know. Thanks again y'all.
- joe

You need to find out if you are getting too much gas or not enough,,,,,when you have a problem,,,,,,,make sure the choke is not closing up on you,,,,look down the carb,,,,,do you smell or see gas,,,,,,,,,,,,can you see if the accelerator pump is squirting gas out of its nozzle,,,,,,shoot a bunch of carburetor cleaner down into the carb,,,,,see if that makes the van want to start,,,,,,,go get us some clues.....

Sounds like something is clogging up the flow of fuel. Maybe there is still some debris in the tank that is stopping up the pick up screen? When is sits for a few minutes the trash floats off the screen only to return when the pump starts pulling on it again.

Duane in Tennessee.

Maybe a suggestion -from experience??- Doni is correct -as usual- id 1st see if the oil on the dipstick -smells like fuel!! yes -indicates fuel pump going bad!! also- determine if the carb IS?? getting fuel -when it "boggs" turn the key off -put in neutral & stop & look!! Now - when we "ALL" describe a symptom= usually we dont explain =EXACTLY whats happening!! Boggs means many things - quits? with no fuel or too much fuel?? When u try & restart it??? does it take a longer crank time & do u hold the gas pedal too the floor??-Flooded? or opposite?? Is there any spark when it Boggs? When there is any problem -always see if there is spark and fuel ??That will tell you a great detail.

Thank you all for your help. I greatly appreciate your time and efforts to help me. So I "THINK" that I'm on the right track. But I have yet another question.

First off, due to having recently rebuilt the carb, as well as had the gas tank cleaned due to bad gas. I installed an inline fuel filter just before the fuel pump. Just to be clear, this is in addition to the one that is coming off of the carb. I did this in hopes to catch any bits of debris that may possibly come from the tank. This was all done prior to my recent problem.

So after some thought, I decided to install an inline fuel pressure gauge between the fuel pump and the carb. This way, if the van cut out and stalled again, I could look and see if there was still fuel pressure. If there was, I'd guess the problem may be in the carb. If there wasn't, then it could possibly point towards it being a fuel pump issue. So I took my van out tonight for a test drive after installing the gauge. When I started it up, the gauge read 6 psi. She was purring once again. About 5 minutes into my drive, she cut out again and stalled. When I looked at the gauge, it read zero.

I'm thinking that it could possibly be the manual fuel pump. Any opinions on this. As I said, I'm still learning about all of this stuff. Also, is there any chance of the inline fuel filter getting clogged up, and that could be what is limiting the fuel to even get into the pump ? "Econopoor" suggested clogging somwhere could be the problem, what do you think ? I am a little more nervous to keep testing it out on the road, as it crapped out way sooner into the drive than it did the previous time. If it is the fuel pump, I don't want to chance it getting worse each time, thus leading to me eventually getting stuck somewhere. When I tried to start it right after, it was a no go. So I let it sit for 3-5 minutes tonight, and it started right back up. I was able to drive her right home as I was only a few blocks away.

Lastly, If you do agree and do suspect that it is the fuel pump, what kind of manual fuel pump would you recommend ? Any suggestions ?

Thanks again everyone for your time. Hopefully I will figure this out soon.

- joe

Re-check the lines and clean everything again, many times after rebuilding, something finds its way into the float valve or other part of the carb.   Plus keep in mind, even rebuilding a 50 year old carb doesn't mean it will perform like new, there is still wear on the parts.  Also, the fuel filter should go AFTER the fuel pump with a mechanical pump, you could be getting a suction/air lock effect withe two filters.  Or, a Carter YF (or any 1 BBL) only needs 3-4 PSI, higher pressure could force gas through the float and cause flooding.   You said the gauge read zero when the engine stalled?, it should be 0 if its not running. Try moving the filter.  Also, how is your tank venting?  Donivan has covered this many times before, right?  What kind of cap do you have?  New replacement caps actually only vent one way, IN, they don't allow pressure out like the original caps.  I've had pressure build up in the tank that caused flooding, stalling and leaking of the carb until I modified a cap to let air out.  Have you tested the pump by disconnecting the line from the carb and inserting it into an empty water bottle and cranked the engine over?  It should fill the bottle in healthy 1 or 2 ounce squirts in less than a minute if its working properly.  If it only trickles out, the diaphram may be shot from ethanol.  Napa still sells new OEM pumps for most 60's sixes that are supposed to be alcohol resistant....

Sounds like a clogged fuel filter to me.

yep

Thanks for your help and suggestions ! I did several tests today to see if I could narrow down what may be happening. First off, I removed the additional inline fuel filter that I had put in before the fuel pump. I took her for a spin and it did the same thing. So that ruled out the suction/airlock theory that went along with running the 2 air filters in the positions they were in. I also did a test with the gas cap completely off and it followed the same pattern with stalling out. Finally, I went and got a new fuel pump, thinking this would be the last possible piece to the puzzle, and low and behold, nothing changed, even with the new fuel pump. So it seemingly almost has to be something going on in the carb. That part makes sense to me since I was the one that rebuilt it. Maybe something is sticking, and not moving correctly. Also maybe the float is out of adjustment. Or something is getting blocked. Also, after it stalled one of the times, I pulled the air filter off and pressed on the gas pedal to see if any gas would shoot into the carb, and there was nothing when I did this. So seemingly, the carb is being starved for fuel. I even pulled the fuel filter off, which is new, that is attached to the carb and blew through it. There was no resisance when I did this, so I don't think somehting is blocking the filter. Tomorrow I will pull it apart and see what I can see. Today I got about 10 minutes of run time before it shut off. Once again, if I let it sit for 5 or 10 minutes then, it fired right up and I drove it home. If any of you that have way more knowledge than me could take a crack at suggesting what options are left for me, it would be a huge help. Thank you so much once again.
- joe

There is filter on the end of the fuel pick up tube in the tank. They get painted with shellac over time and become very restricted.

In the first post you talked about replacing the brake lines, both steel and rubber, did you mean fuel lines? If not, you really do need to do this. The rubber hoses delaminate on the inside and sometimes form a one way valve. Rust in the fuel line is very common and it will do exactly what you describe. It is sort of like having a minor stoke, where a clot of rust can stop things up and then drift back out of the way.

Maybe one thing you need to do, after the van stalls, is to disconnect the fuel line at the pump, and verify that you have fuel running freely out of the line.

Not to belabor the obvious, but are you low on gas? My van gets really low on power, runs rough, and stalls at idle, many miles before it actually runs out.

Cheers for the help Bill. There is enough gas in the tank for sure. So I know that's not it. Secondly, the van doesn't run rough at all, it just kind of quits when this happens. And when it sits for 5 or 10 mintues, she starts right back up.

I mistakenly put Brake lines in my previous post. Thanks for catching that. Whoops.  ha ha. Yeah, before getting her going again, I had the tank cleaned, I cleaned all of the fuel line out quite thoroughly. So now I've replaced the fuel pump as well.

Due to the cycle of what I'm dealing with each time. And the amount of time it takes to happen, I think it may have something to do with either heat causing something to expand. Maybe this could cause something to get blocked or stuck in the carb ? I'm not sure. Something is happening that results in the carb not getting the fuel that it needs over that time period. I'm not sure by any means, but after all of my trials without resolve, its pointing me in this direction.

After is stalled the last time last night, I took the air filter off and pressed the gas to see if any gas would be coming into the carb, and there was nothing.

The good thing about this all, is that I'm slowly learning step by step a lot about my van. But it would be nice to overcome and win this small battle.

Thanks again ! If you think of anything else along these lines, let me know. Otherwise, I'll keep at it and see what I can come up with.

ok to you =this may sound sort of ="HOKEY"?? but it does work- if  "Vapor Lock" is the problem-causes stalling & when Hot-  non-start. try putting some wooden clothes pins on ant part of the metal fuel lines near carb!! it works!!

That will help you see if its the fuel thats causing a problem/metal lines. If so consider going to another non-metal fuel line. and installing an add'l electric fan in the doghouse area to pull that heat out-some on the forum have done that before with great results!!

Twinpilot is right about the wooden clothes pins. It works. My sugestion would be to pull the fuel line off the carb (right after it stalls) and crank the engine to see if gas comes through the line. If you get gas while cranking, then the problem most likely is in the carb. Sounds like the float is set too low, but the test I described will save you from pulling the carb without verrification.

I would get a outboard fuel tank and hook that directly to the fuel pump if you can run the problem is in the tank maybe fuel lines, venting, something but you have now eliminated one or the other. If it still wont run you can eliminate the fuel system rear, sometimes you just have to isolate funky little problems like that a bit at a time. Luckily its a pretty simple operating system you will find it, like I said just narrow it down little by little, you may not know what it is, but you will know what it isn't till you find it!

Thanks Dan & Twinpilot.
I tried a few things, and the problem is still there. Today I put the wooden clothes pins on and left the doghouse open to make sure there was plenty of ventilation around the engine. I kept a close eye on the pressure gauge as I was driving. I also kept feeling how warm the fuel lines were. And with all of this on my radar, it still did the exact same thing about 5 - 10 minutes out. When it stalled, The fuel lines weren't barely even warm. I was also watching inside the carb when I was giving it gas and I could see it flowing in there. After it stalled I pressed the gas pedal and it squirted fuel down into the carb. With what I found out today, I truly believe vapor lock isn't the issue, and I do believe that the carb is getting fuel. Something must be happening in the carb. I'm definitely baffled at this point. My next step is to take off the carb and see what I can see.

One thing I did notice, is that the more acceleration there was, the quicker the fuel pressure dropped. Not sure if that sparks any ideas, but the fuel pressure being lost seems to have a lot to do with how much fuel the carb is getting.

I've talked to my mechanic friends and described to them all that I've done, and all that is happening, and the conversation always ends with them thinking it is something that has already been covered. The symptoms of what vapor lock does, match almost perfectly, but it doesnt' seem possible with what I found out today. Also, I've had the van for 7 years. I drove from Chicago to Austin when I bought it. The gas line routing was exactly the same as it is now, and it was a hot drive down here when I got it. She ran like a charm then. And she runs like a charm now, but she just loses fuel pressure and cuts out.

I would put money on fuel starvation. Run a rubber hose from the inlet of the pump up and into a small gas can and see if you have the problem. You are describing fuel starvation.

Thanks Bill, I will give that a go in the morning, and let you know how it goes. Cheers sir !

Steps of elimination, you have to think like an old mechanic, before they had computers to analyze the problems we used to use the process of elimination, by using a jerry can you can determine if the problem lies in the carb or the tank, then start from there at this point you have too many variables to pinpoint the issue.

If gas was squirting into the carb right after it stalled, then that would suggest that fuel is not the problem. Now this makes me think that maybe your coil is overheating and cutting out.

Well, problem has been solved. It something in the fuel tank. I'm pulling it tomorrow, but something in there is getting clogged. Duane, you hit the nail on the head right away. I don't know why I was so hesitant to consider the sending unit screen. I'm sure it was because I was convinced at first that I rebuilt the carb wrong. But thank you Bill for driving home the point again to try using a small gas can with a line running to it. I almost couldn't believe it when I ran my usual test route and it went past the spot it would usually stall out at. I remember the sending unit was pretty oxidized after I got the tank back from being cleaned of bad gas. so yeah, that screen on there might be to blame. I will end this thread when I can confirm my findings. But seriously, thank you all for your help. Even though this took a bit to figure out, I now understand a lot more regarding the fuel system in general. And that is going to be extremely helpful down the road for me. As I said before, the mechanics of a van, and how it all works is very new to me, but slowly things are clicking. Cheers everyone !

One more quick thing, if the actual sending unit isn't working properly beyond just the screen, do you know of any place I could get a new one ? I looked around online today, and couldn't find an exact replacement. I see that there are screens, but that was it. I'm saying this because after I Initially put my tank back in, and attacthed the sending unit's connector back to wire running to the gauge, the gauge wasn't registering what the fuel level was. Before all the gas in my tank went bad, the gauge worked fine. Don't know if all of the oxidizing on it has lead to its possible death.

You can test it's resistance with a meter, should go from around 10 ohms full to 70 ohms empty

What did you find when you pulled the sender? Have tried to put another carb on? Pick up a cheap one somewhere? I had major hesitation and power loss with two different re-built carbs for my Chevy. Mechanics all said no matter how many times you rebuild a 40-50 year old carb, the wear on the shafts and accelerator pump cannot be overcome. Final solution was to buy a brand new carb from Daytona Parts Co., the only newly made 1 BBL I could find and it runs perfect now, worth the money! Solved all issues with starting, idle and power loss. Plus the new carb is ethanol resistant.