Got the axles flipped on my pickup

No idea really. I only drove it around the block.

You can really help yourself if you get the book I harp about all the time,, LOL... it goes into detail all about any kind of suspension mod or anything you can think about to do with it.  "HOW TO MAKE YOUR CAR HANDLE" by Fred Puhn,,,,,,HP BOOKS--46.
  When you lower a truck it can have the same effect as raising it in regard to bump steer. Changing the factory ball joint height in relationship to the pitman arm ball joint position can make it want to turn for you when you dont try to,, called "bump steer". When you change the height of the truck, it changes the height of the steering arm ball joint.
  There are two different height steering arms for ours and if you run into a problem, that may help also. Also, another trick is to re cut the taper from having the factory steering arm ball joint on the underside to change it to on top of the steering arm. Also, I found a company that makes adapter taper rings as well as a special tapered end stud that can change the height also.
 I would suspect if you have a problem it would be because the ball joint is now too high or higher than the pitman arm ball joint and at an extreme arc of travel.  Let me know as I am really curious as to how well it drives or if you will be having an issue at all. I suspect you will be posting about it,,  KRUD,,,
vic

BTW,,,, I forgot to mention that on page 88 and 89 it shows how to make a plywood bump steer gauge.

Yeah, I know what bump steer is, I just don't know how bad it was on the truck. I literally drove it less than half a mile around the block and the roads in my neighborhood are very nice so didn't have any bumps to test the bump steer.

Hi . I lowered my '65 6 door 8 inches . Turned the lower radiator upside down . Heat and bend shift rods still hit axle . C notch rear frame, cut front bump stops off . Heat bump in front wheel wells and bang in . Roll front wheel lips . Running 195 60 14 in front and 235 60 14 in rear all inside the fenders . Used shocks from a corvette on the rear .

How does it drive?  Does it have a mind of its own or is it well behaved?

I've always found it a bit odd that although it seems like most everybody would love to drip their vans as much as possible that nobody has bothered to offer a kit. I mean, I know how involved it would be having the average Joe do a c-notch but there are tons of other vehicles with kits that are involved. I have yet to read ANYONE who has successfully lowered these and been able to daily them with no driveability issues. NOBODY. I'm not talking bagging or doing clips or 4-links. Just lowering them.

I don't even want to go that low, just 3-4" max in the front, maybe just 1 or 2" in the rear (I'll still use it as a truck), but it seems that most accounts I've read had handling issues or problems with bump-steer, regardless of drop amount. I had about decided to just remove some leafs, but I'm thinking I might go ahead and "flip" front axle, make some long bump stops and throw a steering stabilizer on; this should control bumpsteer, wandering and shimmy issues, in my off-roading experience.

Here in Oakland, the roads are close to dirt, huge pot holes everywhere. I wouldn't be able to lower it without bags.

How about front and rear reversed eyed springs on the main leaf?

jimthefred wrote:How does it drive?  Does it have a mind of its own or is it well behaved?

Hi . It drove great . Put one extra leaf to stiffen it up . Not a bad bounce .

Some good info here, but would really like to hear how it works.
BTW, the whole thing with ball joints is good info but doesn't apply to straight axles!
I'd hazard a guess that the bump steer issue is due to the change in angle of the drag link between the steering box and the spindle. The part about changing where it locates might help.
If you flip the steering arm, the steering is going to be opposite!

Sorry to disagree, and forgive me IF I am reading yours incorrectly???? I am thinking that part of what you are saying is in the right direction, however there are ball joints on a STRAIGHT FRONT AXLE.. If I am reading yours correctly you are partially correct when you say "is due to the change in angle of the drag link between the steering box and the spindle."  However, it is NOT the spindle but rather the steering arm ball joint relationship to the pitman arm ball joint. Changing the pitman arm length in order to change the relationship between the two ball joints will also change the steering effort and speed of turning, so that is out of the question obviously. In our trucks there are TWO DIFFERENT STEERING ARM  BALL JOINT HEIGHTS used also.

 We do in fact have ball joints in our front STRAIGHT FRONT AXLES.....LOL..... There is a ball joint on each end of the DRAG LINK.  On this drag link there is a front ball joint that connects to the PITMAN ARM and one ball joint that connects it to the STEERING ARM.  These are in addition to the TWO BALL JOINTS that are on a TIE ROD on a straight front axle also.
  The height of the PITMAN ARM ball joint is a stationary height in relationship to the frame and the height of the STEERING ARM ball joint changes up and down from the same frame measurement according to the suspensions travel up and down. 
  The geometry of the steering arm ball joint in relationship to the pitman arm ball joint controls bump steer. If the begining relationship is incorrect and when the suspension travels it will move the steering arm ball joint in an arc. The position of this arc and its travel length will determine BUMP STEER if any at all. When the arc of travel increases, it also increases the drag links length which causes the wheels to turn the same as if you had turned the steering wheel. Ideally, the correct steering arm ball joint height places this arc of travel in a positon that will NOT increase the length of arc and not increase the drag length arms length.

 Here is a quote from the book I keep advising people to read,, LOL
 PG,, 88  "  Adjusting bump steer is an advanced suspension-tuning technique and often makes the difference between average and outstanding handling. Many elusive twitches and wigles can be blamed on bump steer, and often it is the cause of high -speed stability problems. Bump steer is the change in toe settings as the wheels move up and down. It can happen at front or rear. Ideally you want zero bump steer-the toe setting should remain the constant no matter where the suspension moves. Here's how to check bump steer and adjust it."



  In this arc of travel is too much, it means that it is moving in a circle direction and at each end of this circle it is a LONGER TRAVEL DISTANCE,,, which INCREASES THE DRAG LENGTHS LENGTH.  THIS IS WHAT CAUSES BUMP STEER as the drag link length should not increase in length but rather stay constant.
  SO,, if you position the steering arm ball joint in the wrong begining position in relationship to the pitman arms ball joint distance from the frame it WILL INCREASE THE DRAG LINKS ARM LENGTH when the STRAIGHT FRONT AXLES springs either compress or expand causing the steering to steer for you even though you are holding on tight to the steering wheel. 
 This has NOTHING to do with a worn out steering box. If the geometry is correct then the length of the drag link would not change and it would still not turn the truck for you. Granted, yes, a loose steering box will give you less control as you are TRYING to keep the truck from turning on its own,, LOL..
   ALSO,,,CASTER can also effect bump steer as the CASTER is the angle of the king pins and determines if the truck WANTS to drive and return to straight ahead or not.  The CASTER angle can and does change according to suspension travel and can only be set correctly using ANGLED shims between the springs and the axle itself. As the supension compresses it flattens the springs out which then travel rear wards moving the shackles also rear wards,, (O),, When the springs flatten out they can and will also effect the caster angle but not
so severe as the DRAG LINKS BALL JOINT HEIGHTS,,,
VIC

Hey kids. This is why you should have paid attention in Physics class!

Thanks for the great lesson Professor Vic.

Old school, while the proper name of the part may be a ball joint, in usage the ones on the end of the tie rod are called tie rod ends. The ones on the drag link are drag link ends.

Similar to nobody calling intake and exhaust valves poppet valves, because while that is the correct term for the type of valve, in it's intended use they are called by the usage. Kind of like wheel bearings not tapered roller bearings. I can easily live with your terms "steering arm ball joint" and "pitman arm ball joint", but shortening them to just "ball joint" changes normal naming structure.
As used on suspensions, ONLY the large components used at the end of locating arms are called commonly referred to as ball joints to avoid confusion.

Note the tie rod ends are not called ball joints.

The ball joints are used to replace the kingpins on straight axles. They locate the spindle and keep the caster, camber and SAI in the designed specs.

It seems we agree that when the axle is raised in relation to the body (lowering the vehicle ride height), the change to the steering is the relationship between the end of the steering box (pitman) arm, which remains in the same position, and the steering arm located on the spindle, which is raised and changes the arc that the drag link moves in during suspension movement.
To fix this, you must raise the steering box in the body or lower the steering arm. Lowering the steering arm enough is usually limited by surroundings. Raising the steering box is a whole bunch of fab work to important steering mounting!

Another figure.

Vic knows his shit about this topic no doubt, way more than most, myself included. I'm getting that damn book.

Well,, I guess I wasnt supposed to post my reply,,, wonder why?????????   LOL
  So,, will try again.

IMO,, you are way out of touch,,,,  okay,, off my chest and now down to facts and not bullshit.
 
WHERE DID YOU COME UP WITH THIS ONE????????????????   LOL,,,,,,,,, 


The ball joints are used to replace the kingpins on straight axles. They locate the spindle and keep the caster, camber and SAI in the designed specs.

That statement is so far in outer space even the aliens are laughing and for sure will not visit again,,,,,,,,,,  crazy.... I cannot even beleve I am reading it,,,,  NUTZZZ

PLEASE EXPLAIN YOURSELF ON THIS ONE,,,,  How can you replace a king pin on a straight front axle with a ball joint????   I would really like to see this one??????????????

IF YOU ARE TRYING to talk about an independent front suspension???   that is certainly NOT a straight front axle. IF you are talking about the ball joints on an independent front suspension piece?? Yes, there are ball joints that allow the spindles to turn and steer the car. Also they use ball joints on the tie rods,,LOL...
  HOWEVER the A arms are adjusted left to right and up and down with shims or adjusting nuts in order to adjust  the toe, caster and camber and not the ball joints.....LOL......REGARDLESS this has NOTHING TO DO WITH KINGPINS.....LOL
  Now,, for the ball joint dilema,,, 
 
  When I make a custom drag link, I purchase ball joints to put on the ends of it, usually a left and a right hand thread in order to make it adjustable.  OUR drag link has ball joints on each end of it, and yes they are built into the drag link as part of it and not replaceable or you could simply go and buy new ball joints for each end,,, LOL
  In racing applications and or custom,, air craft type bearing ends are used. Contrary to common terminology,,,  GOOGLE the name HYME JOINT and you will find out that it was the 1st company to make them for the government and that was their name,, LOL...  EVERYONE since then calls them HYME JOINTS,,,     
 It IS the relationship of the ball joint at the end of the pitman arm and not the steering box. There are different length pitman arms so to say that its the pitman arm does not attack the issue at all.
  It IS the position of this ball joint end ( I could care less what you want to call it, its a ball joint) of the pitman arm in relationship to the ball joint at the steering arm that dictates the arc of travel OF THE STEERING ARM BALL JOINT.  When the arc of travel is too long it increases the distance between the two ball joints (IE: THE DRAG LINK LENGTH ACTUALLY INCREASES).  The shorter   the arc of travel is----------the straighter the line is and the correct relationship will NOT INCREASE THE DISTANCE.... 
  When the suspension moves (up or down) it is moving the steering arm up or down and nothing else. If you think about it,, there is a ball joint on the end of the steering arm..  (see your picture)
  If you were building a race car or any car or truck for that matter from scratch, then you would also need to figure out things like turning effort which is DIRECTLY related to the length of the pitman arm AND the steering arm fulcrum length.  SO,, with that you have a decicated figure there that you have to use when designing the vehicle  (no??)  So, that gets perhaps your next idea of changing the pitman arms length in order to move the (BALL JOINT) at the end of it,,LOL

 When Ford designed our trucks they had to figure out all of this in order to NOT GET BUMP STEER from the factory or they would have gotten sued for it.  Ford designed the BALL JOINT POSITONING in relationship to each other in order to control this. SO,, moving the steering box in order to move the ball joint position is pretty far fetched in my thinking??? 
  In off road vehicles they actually do make custom steering arms and also blocks to actually move the steering arm ball joint up or down. IF you had read the book??  you would also have read the section about heating up the steering arm in order to move the ball joint height. Typically they are raised up in the air for ground clearance, and by raising the body up and away from the axle, they are moving the steering arm ball joint height DOWN from its original factory position. THIS CAUSES BUMP STEER and is quite normal issue with raising a vehicle. Thus the reason they make all the different height steering arms to also move the ball joint height back up to where it needs to be...
  Enough,,,,  get the book..LEARN something,, its for freeeeeeeeee
BTW,,,,,  TIE RODS ENDS use ball joints,,  A TIE ROD is a part that has a ball joint on the end of it,,,, duh, the same as a drag link,, BOTH USE BALL JOINTS at the end of that part,,,,,,,,,LOL
vic

...in outer space above the US, they are called Heim Joints...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_end_bearing

Like I said and this just copied from yours,,,,,   The Hyme joint, aka,,,,(Heim joint),,,, now a generic name that everyone uses for rod end bearings now,,,, LOL


The H.G. Heim Company was given an exclusive patent to manufacture these joints in North America,

Vic

Washer,warsher..is there any reason a dropped spindle couldn't be used to lower the front end? It seems for me the steering components would remain in their original position (this is a question suspension is foreign to me)

Dropped spindles would work great and you are definetely on track with the suspension. Problem that I see is getting someone to gear up and forge them. There has to be a big market in order for them to justify the expense and liability for it also.
  I know for a fact that if it was a Chevy truck or even a friend just now putting them on his 65 El Camino that there are thousands being sold.  IMO,, there just wouldnt be enough market in the Econolines for some one to put them out. For the Chevy's the front ends will work on all kinds of different cars or trucks and so parts interchange is easy. For the Econoline,, the spindles are only for ours and nothing else so there would be no other market to add to the sales.
  As it is,, the easiest way is a new hollow tubed dropped axle and I really dont see many people even doing that?? You can buy an axle for about $250 or so??? Just my opinion...
Vic

So if one happened to machine a set of dropped spindles(I have a spindle in front of me..have been staring at it for waay too long) do you think moving the spindle 2inches north of its current position which seems to be centered between the two bosses that hug the axle...do you think there would be too much stress above the axle?with the addition of some pretty skinny guesses. Has there ever been a drop spindle for any straight axle? It wouldn't be super expensive to cast them..3d print a model for a mold...or just find machine email..I really want a set of dropped spindles..please skill me and tell me why it won't work

Cnc machine them..my auto spell correct mangled some words in that last post

Vic I would say the easiest way is flipping the axle. Using a SID bent axle or a new tube requires a king pin job, more time and more money, not to mention disassembly of all the brakes. Flipping is pretty basic once you figure it all out. The bump steer issue I'm sure can be overcome if people take the time to deal with it and read about it. I recently posted I'm having lowering blocks made up by my fab guy along with new U bolts to do the flip. Upgrading to grade 8 U bolts for the added stress and load to the U bolts with axle on top. I welcome any input.

Axle blocks seem like a great idea....but typically with just an axle flip your almost in need of c-notching the frame. With blocks...it would be a definate. I said it early in this thread......I've read a million threads about people trying to achieve lowering these vans and even committing to doing it but I haven't found ANYBODY who has done it, figured out the bump steer issues and made it a driver without any sketchy issues. no one. Nobody ever even mentions the issue of radiator contact with the suspension when talking about doing this or the shift linkage. Please.......somebody prove me wrong.

Tim,,,,    If you needed king pins in the 1st place then it would be a good idea anyways,, if not then just put your existing spindles onto the new tubed axle. Either way its a win/win as far as that goes.
  When you say "reverse" it are you talking about putting the axle under the springs instead of on top like they came from the factory. If so, yes as that is what we did on your truck and it drove straight as an arrow when I drove it. We had to remove a leaf also as I recall.
  I like the idea of the dropped tube axle for a lot of reasons. One is that it is so much lighter than the cast iron one and another is you can keep your ride quality of the springs as you dont change them to lower the truck.
  It still changes the drag link BALL JOINTS (lol) relationship as it is moving the spindle and its steering arm ball joint height relationship.
 In regards to a dropped spindle, I had thought of that years ago, but I dont see it happening for ours and so the dropped axle as it is available and accomplishes the same thing.
Vic