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BRINGING IT ALL TOGETHER.... A's, G's & E's


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donivan65
Lance0538
6 posters

    dont know what im doing anymore!!

    Lance0538
    Lance0538


    Number of posts : 24
    Location : Jacksonville, FL
    Registration date : 2013-04-19

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    Post by Lance0538 Sat Nov 23, 2013 2:38 pm

    I feel like I've been chasing my tail with this van(1965. 170) for months now to get it running. I have changed out part after part only to find something else is broken. I actually got it to start last week. It cranked up faster than my 2013 Nissan Sentra and ran amazing for about 15 minutes before it started getting real rough and eventually dying. I inspected the plugs and they were fouled out pretty bad. I cleaned them and tried again with no results, then purchased another set and still couldn't get the thing running again. I checked for a spark and there was nothing. Battery is brand new. Points and condenser are brand new as well. Ignition coil was installed 6 months ago but I haven't drove the van more than 20 miles since then. I checked the positive end of the coil and was getting about 7.9 Volts with the ignition on. Any tips or pointers would be appreciated. I'm a pretty darn good parts changer but diagnosing takes me a little longer.
    donivan65
    donivan65
    Governor
    Governor


    Number of posts : 12246
    Location : San Diego, California
    Registration date : 2008-05-12

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    Post by donivan65 Sat Nov 23, 2013 3:04 pm

    You should take a 12 volt test light, hook it to ground, see if you got juice on both the positive and negative side of the coil,,,,,,,you should have 12 volts on the positive when you crank the engine, 6 volts when it is running,,,,,,BUT,,,,,,when you check the negative side of the coil,,,,the light should BLINK as you crank the engine to show you that the Points, condenser and distributor grounds are all doing their job.......
    AZ SuperVan
    AZ SuperVan


    Number of posts : 219
    Location : Cave Creek AZ
    Registration date : 2013-09-12

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    Post by AZ SuperVan Sat Nov 23, 2013 4:27 pm

    Lance, if the van sat for a few years with gas in the tank, you may have a problem with shellac in the carb on the plugs, and in the worst case, a few stuck valves.
    Seth G
    Seth G
    Vintage-Vans Listings Manager
    Vintage-Vans Listings Manager


    Number of posts : 2087
    Location : Anacortes, WA
    Age : 51
    Registration date : 2013-04-24

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    Post by Seth G Sun Nov 24, 2013 2:16 pm

    How did you check for spark? Is the rotor in the distributor, I know this sounds idiotic, but I forgot to replace it when I put my petronix in and took me a bit to figure out what the problem was. The fact that it started and ran fine then petered out generally points to fuel problem imo. Will it fire with a shot of starting fluid or gas directly into the carb?
    Lance0538
    Lance0538


    Number of posts : 24
    Location : Jacksonville, FL
    Registration date : 2013-04-19

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    Post by Lance0538 Sun Nov 24, 2013 3:16 pm

    Donivan-I get 12v on the positive side while cranking, however on the negative side the test light doesn't blink. It wont even come on at all. So basically I should check my grounds?

    AZ- The tank, lines and pump have all been replaced so I don't see that being a problem.

    Seth- I checked for spark by taking a plug out putting the wire back on, laying on the engine and cranking it over. I also pulled the coil wire from the distributor and checked for spark there. Nothing. Fuel isn't the problem, I disconnected the fuel line from the carb while cranking and got a steady flow.

    Thanks for all the replies!!!
    AZ SuperVan
    AZ SuperVan


    Number of posts : 219
    Location : Cave Creek AZ
    Registration date : 2013-09-12

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    Post by AZ SuperVan Sun Nov 24, 2013 8:39 pm

    Points are not opening.
    avatar
    Old Skool
    Econoline Guru


    Number of posts : 1306
    Location : North Hills, CA
    Age : 72
    Registration date : 2009-06-13

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    Post by Old Skool Mon Nov 25, 2013 9:21 am

    Agreed on the points not opening but also there could be a short in them.It can happen very easily where the condensor and the points wire connect. Points are nothing more than a TIMED on/off switch. They TRIGGER the coil to fire.  The 12volts while turning the motor is a temporary over ride of the pink resistor wire in the wire loom.  It is designed to give a temporary full voltage to the coil while cranking only for easier starting, and then when the ignition key is returned to run then the reduced voltage through the resistor wire is used for run.  The voltage you mentioned is correct. However if your test light is not going on and off that indicates either full open and not closing and opening,OR a short  ALWAYS USE A DWELL METER,, it will show you the EXACT setting for the points. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE for you to get it exactly correct any other way!!!!!  It would also show you a problem right now that you are looking for.  Using a dwell meter sets the points exactly correctly with no guessing of what they are set at. Everyone has a different touch or idea of a feeler gauge sliding through the points,and a feeler gauge does not take into account for worn bushings and or worn distributor lobes, the dwell meter takes all of that into acount and tells you exactly what the points are doing...
     I use a combination voltage meter and dwell meter, at least 25 years on this one and had paid for itself over and over and over and over.. NO GUESSING.  You SHOULD be able to turn the motor over and get a spark from the end of the coil wire to any ground on the motor. If not, and no pulsing on your test light it shows an issue there.  Like I said,, check for shorts or broken wires also. The points need to connect and provide an on/off ground in order to trigger the coil. If the wire is broken it will not work either...as its not telling the coil to trigger.
      Also,,,  it sound like you may have ALSO perhaps a fuel problem. I usually look down the carb and pump the gas pedal or linkage,, you should see fuel squirt out into the throat from the accelerator pump.  If its a question of the fuel pump or???   I pour a little gasoline, or acetone or lacquer thinner and see if it will fire then. If it fires and THE DWELL and the timing are correct it wont fire back up in your face.
      For timing AFTER THE DWELL IS SET and the motor is runnning I never use a timing light,, you dont need to.  I raise the idle up to about 1500 or so, and LISTEN to the motor and keep advancing the distributor until I can JUST hear a slight miss. That means I have advanced the distributor timing too far and needs to be backed down a tad. Back it down until the little miss leaves and shut the motor down.  Then try to restart it, IF it turns over hard, that means the timing is STILL a little bit too far advanced. Back it down again a little bit more, shut it down again and re start. It SHOULD start by just taping the key meaning its timed perfectly. Doing it this way it times it and allows for stretched timing chains and the sort. None of this is good if the DWELL is not set correctly firstly though.
       Also, the other part you mention about the plugs being oil fouled is also an indicator of rings and/or also valve seals?? as they shouldnt be oil fouled for just turning over. If an old set and you just pulled them out after it died,, then it doesnt sound good?? 
    vic
    vic
    Sy Hollinshead
    Sy Hollinshead


    Number of posts : 466
    Location : Cambridgeshire, UK
    Registration date : 2008-10-11

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    Post by Sy Hollinshead Mon Nov 25, 2013 10:35 am

    Yeah, i don't think he said the plugs were oil fouled, just fouled from running far too rich. Could be just something simple like idle mixture.
    donivan65
    donivan65
    Governor
    Governor


    Number of posts : 12246
    Location : San Diego, California
    Registration date : 2008-05-12

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    Post by donivan65 Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:21 am

    Take the negative wire off the coil, see if the voltage that is coming into the positive terminal also comes out that terminal which tests the coil,,,,,,,,put it back together,,,,,unhook the condenser,,,,see if that makes the negative side of the coil blink,,,,,every time the negative side of the coil blinks, it fires the coil,,,,,,no juice at the negative side of the coil either means no juice coming out of the negative side terminal or the wire, points or condenser are shorted to ground,,,,reach in there and open the points,,,,see if that puts the light on,,,,,,when,,,,,you have voltage on the positive side of the coil,,,,,you SHOULD have NO voltage on the negative side    IF,,,,,,the points are closed,,,,,,HOWEVER,,,,when,,,,,you pop the points open by hand,,,,,it lets voltage go up to the negative side......,,,,,so start testing,,,,,something is touching ground,,,,,maybe the wire when it goes into the distributor,,,maybe the little ground wire is in there wrong,,,,,,
    Lance0538
    Lance0538


    Number of posts : 24
    Location : Jacksonville, FL
    Registration date : 2013-04-19

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    Post by Lance0538 Wed Nov 27, 2013 2:57 pm

    Thank you so much for all the replies. Sorry It took me forever to get back, had to pry my wifes hands open for this computer. Well the good news. Got the van running for the first time in 4 months. Old Skool had it exactly with the short in the condenser and points wires. It was literally a 2 minute fix. Its ALWAYS the small stuff that gets me. So I let the van run for a while, getting nice and hot so I could adjust the valves. That's where the bad news comes in. I was cranking the engine over by hand and left the ratchet down there when I was done. Basically I forced feed my radiator the ratchet and now I'm out 140 bucks for a new one. Also got some kind of knocking sound coming from the transmission that I need to investigate. Thanks for all the replies though, I didn't expect to get that much information. It really helped!

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