disc brake conversion kits????????????? expert opinions?

True, tho I have yet to weigh all the components it all looks like the disk brake conversion will give me more unsprung weight. Yet not alot I guess and I doubt with and old buckboard suspension like on our earlies it will make much of a performance difference. Of course, I just putter around anyway.

More concerned about rotational weight related to taking off and stopping because even tho unsprung weight is worse than suspended weight, I'm quite sure, in staight axled oldies like ours (more like a garden shed on wheels) a little unsprung weight does not make as much difference as rotational weight.

Now that we are discussing it I will make some effort to weigh the caliper and mount to compare to the backing plate and brake assembly--unless of course somebody else has done it already.

Thanks much to all for contributing to this disk brake conversion chat. Because there are so many choices of parts I am trying to stick to NAPA for simplicity and when finished I will post a complete parts list. I'm not holding my breath on that one :-)

If any one here could help me maybe ... I have a 67 chevy van and I am looking for a left front drum brake backing plate. Mine is split and I am moving soon and don't have time to put the disc brake kit on yet. Or even what kinda vehicle it might fit off of. Thanks for any help you can give me.

Sporto

ive been wanting to replace my brake disc rotor for a long time now. i saw this video about
how to replace a brake disc (rotor) and want to know if this can help me too. hope you reply.

one of the guys in our club installed the m1d syle front disc brake set
up on his 67,90 is does stop dramaticlly better no brake fade or pulling
side to side, he used the stock 67 van master cly and perpot valve
with no residual valves external of the mc, works fantastic.
had to move the sway bar mount to the top of the axle and move the
frame mounts to the rear using the rear hole as the front and installed
nut inserts for the rear bolts. we did not move the shocks at all.

New Disc brake options for 2011.


#1 M1D80TA bracket
Feed back information has enabled me to further improve the M1D80TA disc brake bracket, installation and setup. I have now defined one set of Calipers, hoses, banjo bolts and pads that work best for this bracket and the bracket has been changed to improve caliper bleeding. These parts are available in different qualities at different prices and the larger/stronger police/service pads can also be used. This disc set up uses an 11.16” Hat type rotor. It requires some mechanical aptitude for initial installation. Future brake maintenance and pad changes are cheep and easy. This set has an installed radius of 6.65” and the caliper is close to the outside wheel mounting surface so Many 14” rims will just fit and some will not depending on their internal shape.

One advantage to the hat type rotor is service and maintenance and almost never needs machining. Unlike the solid one piece rotor which traditionally has to be machined if warped.

You will clean up, prepare and re-use your hubs with replacement wheel studs installed.
This set up will widen your vans track width but only by approximately 1/8” each side.
M1D80TA bracket






#2 M1DK10N bracket

This front disc set up uses a one piece 11” 74 Nova rotor. This set has an installed radius of 6.5” and the caliper is quite inboard so most 14” rims will fit as the 74 Nova came factory with 14” rims but some will not depending on their internal shape. The M1DK10N takes basic mechanical skills and equipment and will feature way less work to install then the other options. Much less modifications to the van then previous nova rotor installations no moving the shocks or machining of steering arm or anything like that. But this rotor will off set the wheels out by just over 3/8” on each side. In alignment terms, that’s a lot! But many aftermarket wheels do worse then that. Aftermarket wheels can be purchased to correct that off set back to original track width.

With this bracket I will provide this option; You can purchase the manufactured brackets or a scale template on this design so the budget challenged Vanner with fabricating shills can make the brackets themselves. Comes with a parts list of specific calipers, hoses, banjo bolts and pads to use or the larger/stronger police/service pads can be used as well.
M1DK10N bracket

Note: Widening the tread width of the front wheels changes the steering geometry in too many ways to explain hear. You may want to research the subject your self. The usual effects are; more steering input force is required, especially at stand still steering, abnormal tire ware, wheel fit in fender wells and if the width is excessive there can be increased loss in strait line stability driving (wonders more and feels like it grabs every crack in the road).





#3 M1D2KV Bracket

I am also designing a 12” rotor disc brake set up,. The M1D2KV set up will take a little more work on the initial install and requires larger wheels. Front braking efficiency will be 11% greater. My 15” aluminum wheels just fit but I have to move the balance weights.
It will use a smaller caliper that has a smaller piston area. So a different master cylinder then the other conversions will be needed on this application. It will also have smaller surface area pads so will not get as much mileage out of the pads as compared to the other choices.


.




Note: All disc brake conversions require changes to the rest of your vans brake system additional to changing the brakes at the axle. The amount of and quality of change required/desired and its associated cost varies widely depending on your specific van and what you want in the end. Changes will include but are not limited to, the master cylinder, addition of residual valves and proportioning valve and new lines. You need to look into what is involved to convert your vans brake system in a correct and safest manner.
I read and hear other Vanners who claim “they didn’t need this part or that part and the old line and master work fine with the disc brakes”. It is my personal opinion that they probably don’t and never will know how much improved their system could be if they applied the recommendations to their van. When it comes to your brakes you must educate yourself enough to know what you are doing and this is not the area to go cheep. If you are considering repairing or modifying the brakes on any vehicle, you need to know legal authorities will hold you 100% liable and financially accountable for claims made resulting from failure of that brake system, assuming they can prove you did a repair or modification to that vehicles brake system.

Lets clear up the “How much” question.
I keep getting asked the un-answerable question!
“How much will it cost to change my van to disc brakes?”

The answer varies greatly depending on many variables, like your individual answers to the following…..

Year of your van?.
Van model?
Sway bar? What year sway bar? Aftermarket bar?
Price of parts in your geographical location. A big price difference on this one!
What quality of parts do you choose, parts come in several qualities/prices , “white box” ? Name brand? On line? higher priced aftermarket parts? Or bone yard parts?
How old are your lines and hoses do they need changing?
What type of rear brake mods? Are you going rear discs? If so that’s another whole can of worms that changes everything else.
Overhaul of rear drum brakes is needed!
Park brakes? They need to work right!
Which disc rotor set up do you want?
Your mechanical and fabricating ability, do you have to hire help?
Cost of hired labor and any machine shop or professional services.
Do you have to replace your wheels that might not fit?

Here are some prices rumored by others.

The cheapest I have heard, some one said they did the conversion complete 4 wheel discs for $400.I think that was all junk yard parts and the person had much ability and equipment and a full shop.

I spent over $2600 on my brakes. Four wheel power disc new everything, I have a full maintenance shop with everything. I’m sure if I lived in the USA I could have done it for about $1600 or less. I live in a place where the same $22 caliper at Napa in the southern USA cost me $54, and the southern states $34 master is $96 where I live, my rear calipers were $195 each for over hauled ones.

The front disc conversion brackets and all should on average come in around $450 and up but can vary allot. And that’s cheaper then many aftermarket brake kits.
The necessary master and lines and valves upgrade varies allot, could be as low as $100 or as high as $300 +.
Rear discs conversion could be anywhere from $100 to $700 more or less.
Power boosted brakes will add another $100 and up to 2K, who knows what ever depending on your mechanical ability.
It all depends on what you have and where you want to go with it.
It is probably reasonable to expect to spend $500 to $800 for the basic do it yourself disc/drum conversion.
Anyway as you can see, you will be the one telling us how much it costs when you’re done.



Additional Van modifications sometimes needed.
In some cases the 2nd gen van needs additional modifications to the sway bar link mount at the axle. This was particularly a problem when the K5 Blazer calipers were used. Here are a couple fine examples.
Original bracket:
Modified bracket t

Replaced bracket

You could probably do this with a chunk of 2x2x1/8” angle iron
Some Vanners who installed the M1D bracket on their 2nd gen report no problem at all with the sway bar.
The 1st gen will need the Master cylinder mount bracket cut away to allow fitting a duel circuit master. A 1st gen with a sway bar will need the sway bar lowered at the frame mounts to clear the newly installed duel circuit master cylinder and the belly pan modified to clear.



If your brake lines are more then ten years old you should replace then all including the flex hoses at this time. And rebuild your rear drum brakes.

Some people also experienced a lot of problems getting their system to bleed correctly. Many Vanners had a low brake pedal feel. Some of which was a actual problem and some just had unrealistic expectations of how their brakes should feel.
Even though these disc brake brackets will come with install instructions and a parts list; I highly recommend you read the article I wrote on brakes and service problems.

If you would like any of these brackets please email me at m1dadio@shaw.ca

Thank you
M1D

If you wish to reduce unsprung weight you can get alluminum calipers from Wilwood that replace the standard GM calipers. (single piston pn 120-5861 ) or (duel piston pn D52).
One thing about rotor vs drum wieght is the fact that the mass of cast iron required to stop a vehicle of a certain wieght is the same. The cast irom rotors should be near the same wieght as the cast iron drums. Its a matter relating to the science of braking, ability to absorb and disapate heat and the amount of heat transfer capacity.
If you want to reduce that rotating weight you have to go to different materials. Lighter materials but that can still deal with the heat transfer requirments.

M1D

Disc brake brackets are finally available, almost!.

See earlier in this thread for expanded descriptions.

The M1DK10N brackets that use the 11” Nova rotors are ready. Certainly the easiest to install.
I will also provide, for the financially challenged person with fabrication skills, a template of this K10N bracket with parts list and install instructions at a reduced fee.

M1D80TA , an improved version of the earlier M1D brackets using the 79, 11.16” trans-am rotor takes a little more hand skills but is a better set up in my opinion. These brackets are suposed to be ready monday Feb 7th.

The M1D2KV brackets using the corvette 12” rotor and a smaller caliper are ready. Although not road tested yet, I am installing them on my van tomorrow and expecting excellent results.

If you are interested in having any of these brackets, email me at
m1dadio@shaw.ca
with your request and I will respond with the price and availability, most are allready spoken for.

The parts lists and install procedures will be included with the brackets or made available electronically to those who demonstrate financial commitment.

M1D

A lot of people are asking about wheel size and “will they fit”.

There are so many different wheels with so many different tires sizes that there is absolutely no way I can answer your questions about your wheels.

Here is some information on the brackets.
They are all have the same bolt pattern as the G van.

Usually aftermarket wheels have more internal space, especially “machined mag wheels like slots and my eagle 117s and even weld wheels with the flat wheel disc. Factory steel wheels are a total hit and miss campaign, they are made for specific applications and no further comments can be made on them.

The M1D K10N uses the 70-74 Nova that came with 14” wheels. That does not mean all 14” or 15” wheels fit! They have to be “disc brake wheels”. This set up is approximately R= 6.5”. But that’s not all there is to be considered this rotor offsets the wheels out more then 3/8” so that makes better clearance of the caliper inside the wheel but puts the wheel closer to the wheel well lip which might make larger tires rub. This set up also puts the caliper further inboard which usually means modifying the 2nd gen lower sway bar attachment.


The M1D80TA set up uses the 79-81 firebird rear rotor. Because this set does not off set the wheel out near as much. Although that means the steering geometry is closer to stock and the wheels sit in the wheel well better; you likely need a cleaner space on the inside of the wheel to clear the caliper and bracket. This set is approximately R=6.72”. So a lot of 14” and 15” will fit but many may not. The 79 Trans-Am had 15” mag wheels.
Because this caliper set up is narrower and more compact into the wheel it has been reported that 2nd gen sway bar mods were not required.

The M1D2KV set up is 12” rotors with smaller calipers. Probably better suited for the 1” master cylinder. This set is R=7.1”, they just fit into my 15” mags with 1/8” clearance. Not likely too many 15” wheels will fit here but 16” and up should be no problem. This set up is even more compact and inside the wheel then any other so additional van mods are not likely needed.

Hope this answers for you.

M1D

Just as a note I am using a mid 70's 15" Pontiac Rallye II style wheel for a spare. it clears both my front and rear disc setup. is a 15x7 rim. It has a 3.75" backspace I believe. This is on the 79 firebird rotor set up.

Feb 13, 2011

Additional general installation notes for initial; installation of disc brakes.

#1 I found that the organic and semi metallic brake pads do not grab as well as the “metallic” brake pads.

#2 All the brackets are deliver unfinished because every body wants to finish theirs to their own liking.

#3 On all brackets: when fitting the caliper to the bracket and making sure the caliper moves freely. apply wheel bearing grease to the bracket and the caliper on the sliding surfaces as seen here..

In this area.

#4 Do not apply wheel bearing grease to the slide bolts, bushings or “O-ring. They are made of a rubber material that will degenerate rapidly with organic lubricants. Do grease these bolts, bushings and o rings with synthetic grease like the silicone dielectric grease supplied with some calipers which is the same stuff used under the module in a HEI distributor.

#5 When and if you need to grind or belt sand the crusty chunks of your calipers to make your wheels spin free, don’t be shy to grind down the tops of the brackets if they are sticking up too high or hitting the wheel.
Like on this earlier bracket that stuck up 1/16” above the caliper.


#6 For the 80TA and 2KV set up that require hub perpetrations. It has been found that the flat surfaces of your hub may have stud installation damage or wheel bolt over torque damage that resembles a high spot directly around the stud hole. It is important for true running rotors to file the surface flat and check for flatness after installing the new studs.



#7 It has been discovered that not all Van forgings and castings are the same. For that reason it may be necessary to file fit the bracket or steering arm or spindle mount where there may be discrepencies.

Like this 1st gen steering arm that fit

tech foot note

In The new instructions and at other locations throughout the van sites I included imformation about useing a dial indicator to measure rotor run out and how to true the rotor with shims.

What I did not say was that I actually don't bother doing that and never do so unless I am having a brake pulsation issue.
All the disc brakes I have installed on these vans have never needed to be shimmed, so far.

M1D

Doo’s and don'ts Advisory: Thinking about getting disc brakes??

I am hearing of many vanners who pre-buy calipers, rotors, hoses and other disc brake stuff with the intension of getting their brackets later.

I highly recommend against that, for the following reasons.

#1 some people change their mind or sell their van and the parts become worth almost nothing.
#2 brackets and the recommended parts for them continue to evolve and your parts may end up being not the best choice.
#3 some parts lists posted on the van sites are not accurate or not from the bracket designer.
#4 the store bought parts expire their warranty and return ability as they age on your shelf.
#5 some people change there mind about which brake set they want on their van and the brackets they get are not for the parts they bought.

I recommend you;

#1 buy the brackets first (especially when they are available, like now for example) and then don't go buying anything else.
#2 you might choose to sell them at a later date if you change your mind or sell your van, like some have done.
#3 buy the remaining store bought parts at the time you do the conversion. This gives you an opportunity to shop around and find best deals and avoid some of the pitfalls mentioned above.

Thank you
M1D

All makes perfect sence. I will be ordering my brackets next week. Thanks for taking the guess work out of the transformation. It helps feeling confident in what you are about to do. Awesome

Hey M1, I noticed somebody in another forum said something about only using Dot 5 fluid ,, I was thinking we figured Dot 3 was best? or doesnt it matter ?

Well, like I said before. different fluids have different qualities suited for different applications which includes intended use.
DOT3 or 4 is what auto manufacturues today still use for street application.
I encourage anybody who is contemplating deveating from what is the most commun and most proven street use brake fluid to get factual education on what they are considering changing to. And by factual education I not talking about coffee shop BS or magzine articles and especialy not what some sales person is telling you. Im talking about engineering data, recomendation from the manufacturer, information from D.O.T. on use of the product and real information from the tech suport people that build and service profesional race cars. and statistical data from acident reports .

One rule nobody can escape is, It is always a give and take situation. some fluids are better for certain reasons but that always means you loose atributes in some other area of concern. If some brake fluid could be "just better" with no loss of any other atribute then why arent the auto manufacturers using it in all thier cars?

I won't use dot 5 in a daily driven street machine.
here is some begining reading on it, read paragrph 8 in this link
http://www.superchevy.com/technical/chassis/brakes/0509sc_fluid/index.html


M1D

M1 and Digz everyone should keep in mind we are utilizing parts for our brake upgrades from 1970 and 1980 vehicles..These parts m/c and calipers were rated to use DOT3 fluids...When I did my conversion the master cylinder instructions stated Warranty Voided if any synthetic fluid was used.

Hello All:
There are still a couple sets of M1D80TA bracket sets left over and will sell to whom ever shows me the money first. These are the improved version of the original M1D brackets that use the Trans-Am 11.16" rotors. If you want them you need to email me at m1dadio@shaw.ca

The M1dK10N "Nova" rotor brackets and the M1D2KV 12" rotor brackets are all sold out.

If you are wanting a set of the sold out brackets you can email me your request and I will put your name onto a wate list. When there is enough interest (names on the list) I will have another small batch manufactured. You should expect the wate time of realisticaly be 6 months to a year or so. The longer you wate to put your name on the list, the longer everbody will have to wate, so if you want them put your name in.

Alternatively: you might find someone who hasn't yet used thier brackets and bribe them into selling with an offer they can't refuse.

For those of you who are new here, see the options on page 21 of this thread.
Thank you
M1D

bump

I have been running the 12" rotor set up for awhile now and it works great. I had thought the smaller "metric" style caliper might be too small but the 12" diameter rotor makes up for anyy looses due to smaller caliper and pad size. However, as I suspected, even thought the bracking performance is a little better then the 11 and 11.16" rotors, the 12" rotor set up really eats the pads. I am cleaning the brown dust off my wheels prety much every weekend. I remember this to be the case when GM used these calipers and pads on the front of the Toronado and the Eldorado in the late 70's. Which by the way was the only vehicle of that wieght class they ever used these smaller calipers on. After that these calipers were used exclusivly on the lighter cars and "S" series trucks one weight class down.
All that said, I do like the braking performance and will be keeping this setup on my van. The limiting factor with the 12" rotor design is the wheel rim size.

I had to belt sand off the tops of the calipers to get them to clear my 15" rims.

M1D

I got Van back yesterday, I took a few pix of the Shock mount mod. It rides really nice. I didn't get to drive it much before I had this done so I can't comment on the difference. What do ya think? Any issues with how they fab'd this?

Anytime you change the geometry of any component it is going to create some kind of issue that must be overcome somehow. I'm not familiar with the flat bracket setups but like Don spotted that lockpin bolt really isnt designed for that kind of stress ? Someone here or on VCVC had beefed up that type of bracket to put most of the stress on the axle. I'm seeing also the steering arm has been moved inward the thickness of the bracket. What that may have done I have no idea, maybe nothing ? The setup I have is M1's bracket and that from what I have seen creates the fewest obstacles to overcome. The only issue I had was the shock mounts and that was because I had the springs arched more and had to make an exstension which I did from the top mount and that was to keep the swaybar in place because fatter shocks wouldnt clear it. We all are on a learning curve when it comes to modifications like this ,, we just need to report what we run into so we can fine tune things.
There still isn't a bible as to whats right and whats wrong ,,,lol

Great Pics & info- years back- i was a contractor for the maintaence of a fleet of postal vehicles= they switched ti dot 5 -silicone brale fluid. I also @ same time redid the brake systems on my vehicles then & used the same stuff. Todate -ive never had any brake trouble or leaks , lines leaking or bad- bad thing was the dot5 fluid is/ was?? very costly compared to the dot 3/ 4 stuff. Just my experiences.