by Digz Wed Mar 08, 2017 6:36 pmI am not familiar with the Tug rad and I know some of the cooling in the modern setups rely on a certain amount of turbulence in the cross flow tubes to make them work right, but being a down flow was just trying to wrap my head around if it was to much or to little restriction in the rad causing heat build up. My second possible brain fart would be trying an even higher stat like a 205 or something. I know it's warm but it doesn't make sense with all those new clean parts to "normally" cause issues. The fact it gets hot idling surprises me. Usually that's lack of fan. I fought some cooling issues myself on my v8 swap. Idling was never a problem though. If you're running it with the lid up ya know air recirculation isn't an issue. Sure is curious.
+16
jrinaman
vanny
Magic Bus
69
lws67
Keith D
Gileadgarage
Seth G
donivan65
rustytoolss
Kma4444
BADBADGER
Digz
dix
jdlaugh
busman78
20 posters
Runs Hot - Out of Ideas
Digz- Number of posts : 3794
Location : United States Six Lakes MI
Registration date : 2008-05-17
Magic Bus- Number of posts : 1422
Location : -Gateway to the West - St Louis Missouri
Registration date : 2009-12-02
I agree on the fan issue. My buddy put together a 454 and it would overheat idling. That one was the clutch fan slipping!
busman78- Number of posts : 483
Location : Oklahoma City, OK
Registration date : 2012-07-11
FSR makes a direct replacement for these vans, whalemstr I believe is the one that got FSR to make them, they have the same core a the FSR Tug, just a little longer.
As for fans, the first one I used was a 17" Flex-a-lite fan, then invested in a Cooling Components two speed electric fan, that sucker sucked some air, still overheated, next came the Derale 17" performance steel fan, it sucks more air than the flex and a lot more than the stock fan, that is the current fan. I have shrouded, un-shrouded, with and without belly pan.
As for fans, the first one I used was a 17" Flex-a-lite fan, then invested in a Cooling Components two speed electric fan, that sucker sucked some air, still overheated, next came the Derale 17" performance steel fan, it sucks more air than the flex and a lot more than the stock fan, that is the current fan. I have shrouded, un-shrouded, with and without belly pan.
lws67- Number of posts : 193
Location : Upstate South Carolina
Age : 58
Registration date : 2012-06-20
busman78 wrote:
What is the white shit in some of the water jackets in those heads??? And if that is showing in some of the passages of those heads after getting them checked over, who's to say the block doesn't have the same white shit between cylinders hidden from view. You may have mentioned already, but did you pull all freeze plugs during all this teardown? Are these heads still on the engine now, or did you install the EQ's? I assume you thoroughly cleaned the passages in the heads before you installed. Looks awfully suspect to me, like calcium/lime or something foreign. It certainly is not correct to be in passages
busman78- Number of posts : 483
Location : Oklahoma City, OK
Registration date : 2012-07-11
It is really not white Bovine excrement, it is the flash bouncing around, I did blow all the passages with air. Did not do freeze plugs, keep in mind this engine is under 30K, I did drop the oil pan to check the bearings, absolutely clean, bearings looked great.
The Hughes heads were eventually going to be used on this engine when a cam change took place, now they are for my 92 Dakota when the time comes to put a little more kick under the hood.
The Hughes heads were eventually going to be used on this engine when a cam change took place, now they are for my 92 Dakota when the time comes to put a little more kick under the hood.
jrinaman- Number of posts : 890
Location : zelienople,pa.
Age : 59
Registration date : 2011-03-10
something is restricting water flow if its going up the funnel, water coming out quicker than it can draw it in. first thought would be lower hose collapsing and next would be a plugged up rad. I know you checked these repeatedly but water isn't getting back in quick enough. borascopes are available for under $50.00, might be worth looking at passages on top and bottom of rad, and in the block, could be as simple as a dead rat crawled up in there. not familiar with your engine and heads, is it possible that head gasket is reversed or heads not compatable with block? ie, do the ports line up?Magic Bus wrote:busman78 wrote:When rpm's increased with funnel attached the fluid rises then drops as the rpm's lower
Im no expert but Ive filled a few radiators, doesn't that seem backwards?
Wouldn't the pump draw it down at high rpms and let it fill the rad back up at idle?
Just trying to help...I really want you to fix this thing!
lws67- Number of posts : 193
Location : Upstate South Carolina
Age : 58
Registration date : 2012-06-20
This may require surgery, dissection even! Block, heads, water pump, radiator.
When you get around to wanting to have another stab at it try this little test, this is called an improvised experiment:
1) drain the coolant
2) Remove the thermostat
3) Remove the upper hose from the radiator and somehow add another length/cobble an extension to it to get it over the radiator so it dumps to the ground
4) refill the radiator with water and install cap
5) NOW, stick a garden hose in through the radiator return hose fitting
6) Start the engine and let it run and turn the garden hose on just enough so it keeps the radiator full as the water pump does it's job and pumps water out from the disconnected hose end
7) run it, hold revs up for as long as needed to get temp readings the whole time
You may have to plug the bypass hose so water for certain can only flow through the engine. I've done this many times on engines to completely flush the system, AND ALWAYS, the temp gauge doesn't move.....for obvious reasons. You're pumping cold water continuously. You can also feel the block/heads in spots, you should be able to discern any warmer/hot spots on the engine this way. Might reveal something
might flood the yard...... 
When you get around to wanting to have another stab at it try this little test, this is called an improvised experiment:
1) drain the coolant
2) Remove the thermostat
3) Remove the upper hose from the radiator and somehow add another length/cobble an extension to it to get it over the radiator so it dumps to the ground
4) refill the radiator with water and install cap
5) NOW, stick a garden hose in through the radiator return hose fitting
6) Start the engine and let it run and turn the garden hose on just enough so it keeps the radiator full as the water pump does it's job and pumps water out from the disconnected hose end
7) run it, hold revs up for as long as needed to get temp readings the whole time
You may have to plug the bypass hose so water for certain can only flow through the engine. I've done this many times on engines to completely flush the system, AND ALWAYS, the temp gauge doesn't move.....for obvious reasons. You're pumping cold water continuously. You can also feel the block/heads in spots, you should be able to discern any warmer/hot spots on the engine this way. Might reveal something
might flood the yard......
busman78- Number of posts : 483
Location : Oklahoma City, OK
Registration date : 2012-07-11
Okay, that is something to try, have to pick up another used upper hose at Pull-A-Part, one off a Dodge Ram with V6 they are about three feet long, can attach it with that glass tube it should just about reach the ground. Was going to drain the coolant before storing anyways so would be a good time.
In the middle of doing a intake plenum bottom plate fix on the Dakota right now.
In the middle of doing a intake plenum bottom plate fix on the Dakota right now.
Magic Bus- Number of posts : 1422
Location : -Gateway to the West - St Louis Missouri
Registration date : 2009-12-02
busman78 wrote:Okay, that is something to try, have to pick up another used upper hose at Pull-A-Part, one off a Dodge Ram with V6 they are about three feet long, can attach it with that glass tube it should just about reach the ground. Was going to drain the coolant before storing anyways so would be a good time.
In the middle of doing a intake plenum bottom plate fix on the Dakota right now.
We're pulling for you!
lws67- Number of posts : 193
Location : Upstate South Carolina
Age : 58
Registration date : 2012-06-20
I'm doing a 360 build, LA block w/EQ magnum heads with 400+ HP the goal, and have the FSR that's worked great for the current slant 6, so am hoping I don't have similar cooling issues or just running hot. After all you're dealing with I know I'll need to assess every cooling component I incorporate.
busman78- Number of posts : 483
Location : Oklahoma City, OK
Registration date : 2012-07-11
So that raises a question, do any other Dodge boys on this site or any other vanner's use the FSR radiator, especially those with V8's, and which model of radiator?
Curious frustrated minds need to know.
Curious frustrated minds need to know.
Magic Bus- Number of posts : 1422
Location : -Gateway to the West - St Louis Missouri
Registration date : 2009-12-02
jrinaman wrote:something is restricting water flow if its going up the funnel, water coming out quicker than it can draw it in. first thought would be lower hose collapsing and next would be a plugged up rad. I know you checked these repeatedly but water isn't getting back in quick enough. borascopes are available for under $50.00, might be worth looking at passages on top and bottom of rad, and in the block, could be as simple as a dead rat crawled up in there. not familiar with your engine and heads, is it possible that head gasket is reversed or heads not compatable with block? ie, do the ports line up?Magic Bus wrote:busman78 wrote:When rpm's increased with funnel attached the fluid rises then drops as the rpm's lower
Im no expert but Ive filled a few radiators, doesn't that seem backwards?
Wouldn't the pump draw it down at high rpms and let it fill the rad back up at idle?
Just trying to help...I really want you to fix this thing!
I agree that the pump is out pumping the ability of the radiator to feed it or something after the pump is slowing things down.
jrdunn96- Number of posts : 690
Location : Cashion, OK
Age : 62
Registration date : 2016-01-01
Magic Bus wrote:jrinaman wrote:something is restricting water flow if its going up the funnel, water coming out quicker than it can draw it in. first thought would be lower hose collapsing and next would be a plugged up rad. I know you checked these repeatedly but water isn't getting back in quick enough. borascopes are available for under $50.00, might be worth looking at passages on top and bottom of rad, and in the block, could be as simple as a dead rat crawled up in there. not familiar with your engine and heads, is it possible that head gasket is reversed or heads not compatable with block? ie, do the ports line up?Magic Bus wrote:busman78 wrote:When rpm's increased with funnel attached the fluid rises then drops as the rpm's lower
Im no expert but Ive filled a few radiators, doesn't that seem backwards?
Wouldn't the pump draw it down at high rpms and let it fill the rad back up at idle?
Just trying to help...I really want you to fix this thing!
I agree that the pump is out pumping the ability of the radiator to feed it or something after the pump is slowing things down.
OK, I hesitate to throw this out but Have you looked into cavitation? I have always heard this used as a "catchall" when they couldn't figure out the problem. The issue of the coolant coming up in the funnel during increased rpm's made me think of it. I'm with you guys thinking it should go down. For whatever reason your pump is changing from working good to working worse. I don't know what you do to fix cavitation, though.
Bussman, I'm no mechanic(for sure) especially on a Dodge. I'm really a Chevy guy with a Ford Vanup. I would offer a couple extra hands(and a dumb look) if you need them sometime. I'm not too far away. I could at least comiserate with you.
busman78- Number of posts : 483
Location : Oklahoma City, OK
Registration date : 2012-07-11
Novel idea except the radiator cap is off, pressure can not be obtained in the cooling system, the purpose of the funnel set up is to burp the cooling system, with or without the funnel if your system is topped off, you leave the cap off and rev the engine fluid is coming out the neck. Think of it this way, if you were coolant then given a choice of flowing through a 1/8" -3/16" slit or freely flowing through a 1"+ opening no matter how dedicated a coolant you are you will head to the larger opening. Check it out, try it on your car/van, run the engine with the cap off, top off the radiator, let it warm up then goose the accelerator, it is going to make a mess.
Now as for pump cavitation, that is a possibility, the glass tube test should of shown bubbles. Anybody know of a glass water pump? Just kidding.
Now as for pump cavitation, that is a possibility, the glass tube test should of shown bubbles. Anybody know of a glass water pump? Just kidding.
Dan Scully- Number of posts : 254
Location : Apple Valley Ca
Age : 67
Registration date : 2016-07-30
Wow , I cannot see anything you are missing. I think you touched on the pulleys on one thread? Any chance the ratios are wrong and the pump pulley is turning to slow? When these engines first came out we had the old style 318 in the vans and the new style magnums and occasionally we would get water pumps incorrectly boxed. But I believe you had checked that also?
busman78- Number of posts : 483
Location : Oklahoma City, OK
Registration date : 2012-07-11
Have not removed the pump yet, with the cap off and the clear Pyrex tube in place the flow is correct, still the pump may be causing cavitation.
BADBADGER- Number of posts : 246
Location : Minden Nv
Age : 77
Registration date : 2009-05-15
A while back on a previous reply to your heating/cooling problem, I asked if you had verified the actual coolant temperature with a thermometer in the radiator neck. The temperature sender in the manifold may be giving you an inaccurate reading, the sender has to be matched to the gauge to get a true reading. I had this problem on my 318. The gauge would climb to over 220 degrees. I thought it was overheating. Checked the coolant temp with a thermometer, it was reading 180. Replaced the temp sender, solved the problem. Also the wire from the gauge to the sender has to be correct ohms, or , again inaccurate reading.
busman78- Number of posts : 483
Location : Oklahoma City, OK
Registration date : 2012-07-11
No have not done the thermometer in the neck. Next time I get inclined to drag the van out I will stick a thermometer in the necck
Now the gauge is not stock, it is an electric AutoMeter, not using the original resistance wire, I have also replaced the sender just in case, recently installed a VDO mechanical temp gauge to verify the AutoMeter electric, ran them at the same time, dead on.
When I ran the electric fan used a thermal switch, installed near the neck it was set to kick on right after the thermostat opened, it never shut off, even on high speed the temps just climbed. The electric fan would suck the hair off a cat so plenty of air was moving through the fan.
Now the gauge is not stock, it is an electric AutoMeter, not using the original resistance wire, I have also replaced the sender just in case, recently installed a VDO mechanical temp gauge to verify the AutoMeter electric, ran them at the same time, dead on.
When I ran the electric fan used a thermal switch, installed near the neck it was set to kick on right after the thermostat opened, it never shut off, even on high speed the temps just climbed. The electric fan would suck the hair off a cat so plenty of air was moving through the fan.
busman78- Number of posts : 483
Location : Oklahoma City, OK
Registration date : 2012-07-11
Update, the Dakota has a new set of EQ heads so not on foot anymore. Turned my attention to the van in another attempt to find something before the new project from New Mexico shows up.
Pulled the radiator, always a lot of fun, drained the block, beside the fluid that gave me a bath both sides had pretty much the same amount of coolant, you know that no matter which position you are in when pulling the block drains the coolant is going to hit you.
Will be doing a flow test on the radiator today, plan on talking with FSR tomorrow.
Pulled all the plugs, the rear pair on each side are a little lean but with only idling and they are the farthest down the food chain from the primary circuit I am not concerned, plus with a water pumper cooling system that alone is not enough to cook out a cooling system. Also I had 18hg of steady vacuum and excellent air fuel readings on the right side which has the leanest of the plugs.
Report more after chatting with FSR.
Pulled the radiator, always a lot of fun, drained the block, beside the fluid that gave me a bath both sides had pretty much the same amount of coolant, you know that no matter which position you are in when pulling the block drains the coolant is going to hit you.
Will be doing a flow test on the radiator today, plan on talking with FSR tomorrow.
Pulled all the plugs, the rear pair on each side are a little lean but with only idling and they are the farthest down the food chain from the primary circuit I am not concerned, plus with a water pumper cooling system that alone is not enough to cook out a cooling system. Also I had 18hg of steady vacuum and excellent air fuel readings on the right side which has the leanest of the plugs.
Report more after chatting with FSR.
busman78- Number of posts : 483
Location : Oklahoma City, OK
Registration date : 2012-07-11
Left this out, also pulled the water pump, looks like a nice new Mopar six blade LA pump for clockwise rotation. The little black thingy that looks like a crack is only sealant. Also peeked into the two ports feeding the block, clear, no restrictions.
Magic Bus- Number of posts : 1422
Location : -Gateway to the West - St Louis Missouri
Registration date : 2009-12-02
After all you've done I cant imagine what might be wrong. Its kind of like an engine. In order for it to run you have to have fuel, spark, compression and the timing fire at the right time. In order for it to cool it would only seem that the water has to flow through the radiator at the right speed and a fan that cools it down with the right airflow?
busman78- Number of posts : 483
Location : Oklahoma City, OK
Registration date : 2012-07-11
Yep, if I did not shave my head I would of pulled all the hair out by now.
My Dakota 5.2l had coolant coming in on the 5,7 & 4 cylinders, never overheated, even when Prestone came out the tail pipe, granted it ran a little rough but the temps stayed normal.
Will hopefully get some advise from FSR tomorrow.
My Dakota 5.2l had coolant coming in on the 5,7 & 4 cylinders, never overheated, even when Prestone came out the tail pipe, granted it ran a little rough but the temps stayed normal.
Will hopefully get some advise from FSR tomorrow.
Keith D- Number of posts : 405
Location : El Dorado Hills, Ca
Registration date : 2016-11-25
I can't imagine what it could be, you have covered everything (at least twice). Have you considered dynamite?
What is the project coming from New Mexico?
What is the project coming from New Mexico?
busman78- Number of posts : 483
Location : Oklahoma City, OK
Registration date : 2012-07-11
Dynamite was never a consideration, a crusher or shredder has brought many lucid images to mind.
The vehicle is/was my mom's 1971 VW standard beetle, dad bought it used for her in 1975 after my brother totaled her 69 bug, this 71 was low mileage never wrecked when bought, basically still is with 134K on the odometer (rolled over once) has the original paint (faded), it was driven regularly till 84 when she got a Jetta, after that the bug was a backup vehicle, been parked since her passing in 2006, my brother was going to restore it, alas he has done nothing, a few months ago he offered it to me for free with all the new parts that have been acquired. Since I have worked on cars for 46 years, thirty four of those on air cooled VW's, with all the aggravation from this van it was easy to trip over my tongue saying yes I will take it.
I still want to know why this chunk of boxed steel overheats.
The vehicle is/was my mom's 1971 VW standard beetle, dad bought it used for her in 1975 after my brother totaled her 69 bug, this 71 was low mileage never wrecked when bought, basically still is with 134K on the odometer (rolled over once) has the original paint (faded), it was driven regularly till 84 when she got a Jetta, after that the bug was a backup vehicle, been parked since her passing in 2006, my brother was going to restore it, alas he has done nothing, a few months ago he offered it to me for free with all the new parts that have been acquired. Since I have worked on cars for 46 years, thirty four of those on air cooled VW's, with all the aggravation from this van it was easy to trip over my tongue saying yes I will take it.
I still want to know why this chunk of boxed steel overheats.
busman78- Number of posts : 483
Location : Oklahoma City, OK
Registration date : 2012-07-11
First called Bouchillion Performance to verity the style of pump I should be using on this engine based on the configuration of the pulley's, 6 blade pump which is the one been using.
Spent a lot of time chatting with FSR, what a company, outstanding customer service. The radiator I have is rated to handle 600-700 HP, now that is a lot of heat. Based on the simple flow test I did yesterday my radiator is not plugged, looking into it there is no debris, none of the tubes are expanded (excess pressure), none of the fins are smashed restricting flow. The Derale 6 metal blade racing fan is probably the best fan to use, sucks the most air, will out perform an electric fan.
More later, just got a call that the water pump gasket is at O'Reilly's ready for pickup need to beat the schools letting out all the munchkins.
Spent a lot of time chatting with FSR, what a company, outstanding customer service. The radiator I have is rated to handle 600-700 HP, now that is a lot of heat. Based on the simple flow test I did yesterday my radiator is not plugged, looking into it there is no debris, none of the tubes are expanded (excess pressure), none of the fins are smashed restricting flow. The Derale 6 metal blade racing fan is probably the best fan to use, sucks the most air, will out perform an electric fan.
More later, just got a call that the water pump gasket is at O'Reilly's ready for pickup need to beat the schools letting out all the munchkins.
