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BRINGING IT ALL TOGETHER.... A's, G's & E's


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jrinaman
vanny
Magic Bus
69
lws67
Keith D
Gileadgarage
Seth G
donivan65
rustytoolss
Kma4444
BADBADGER
Digz
dix
jdlaugh
busman78
20 posters

    Runs Hot - Out of Ideas

    busman78
    busman78


    Number of posts : 483
    Location : Oklahoma City, OK
    Registration date : 2012-07-11

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    Post by busman78 Sat Jul 30, 2016 2:27 pm

    Unable to keep the temps down, will idle at 180 for twenty minutes then climb past 210, same when driving just does it faster. At 60 mph the engine will overheat within five miles. A lot of time, testing and money has been spent (wasted) trying to correct this problem.

    This is a 67 A108, converted to V8 auto from a slant six 3 speed
    360 Magnum Engine less than 30k miles, compression 175 +/-5, Edelbrock Air Gap, Summit 600cfm, Pertronix Ingitor 2 distributor and coil, 1992 magnum large exhaust manifolds into dual exhaust, front timing cover converted to "A" style, Mopar 6 blade water pump, Bouchillon "A" style pulley set, Derale 17" steel race fan spaced 1" from core, FSR Tug radiator, 16# radiator cap. 727 non lockup transmission with 1500 stall, Ford 9" rear with 3.25 gear set. Engine block was drained and cleaned out, no rust or scale found. Auto-Meter coolant and transmission oil gauges.

    Below is what has already been done or currently in place:
    Timing set 5* BTDC, already tried 0* and 10* with no change, 700 rpm
    Air Fuel is 13.1:1 at idle, max range 10.5:1 to 14.3:1 idle to accel back to idle
    Cruise ranges 12.2:1 to 13.5:1 all readings via digital AF Wideband
    Vacuum is good and steady, also pressurized the crankcase, no leaks
    Coolant system has been pressure tested
    Radiator cap has been pressure tested, also tried another tested cap
    No oil in coolant
    No coolant in oil
    Coolant recovery tank in use
    Coolant mix is 50/50 (Prestone Green)
    Original thermostat was a 195*, current is 180* just delayed the overheating a little
    List of fans that have been used:
    17" Flex-A-Lite
    16" Spal single speed with shroud
    16" Cooling Components two speed with full shroud
    17" Derale rigid steel race - current fan, also has highest air flow of all the others
    Clutch style fan will not fit
    Heater bypassed (no heater) hose loops from intake to pump
    Tested fixed fans with shroud and without - no changes
    Tested all fans with belly pan and without, ran 5* cooler without belly pan
    Replaced temp sender, no change to gauge reading.
    FSR radiator was originally mounted low like lws67 did, did not like the fill neck lower than the upper hose even though the systems is closed, I have since raised the radiator to regular height, the core is centered to the fan. low or high made no change to the operating temps.
    Trans was originally rebuilt with a 2400 stall converter, trans temps were high, now has a 1500 stall, trans temps are down, had no effect on the engine temps.

    I have had several lengthy conversations with FSR, Derale, Cooling Components and others, so far been beating my head against a wall, not to mention draining the wallet and skinning a few knuckles.

    Welcome any suggestions.



    jdlaugh
    jdlaugh


    Number of posts : 298
    Location : Tulsa, OK
    Registration date : 2013-03-18

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    Post by jdlaugh Sat Jul 30, 2016 3:10 pm

    This may be silly, but are you sure you have the thermostat mounted in the right direction? There is a right way and wrong way. Also, have you tried running it without a thermostat just to see what happens? Long shots, I know.... Good luck!

    busman78
    busman78


    Number of posts : 483
    Location : Oklahoma City, OK
    Registration date : 2012-07-11

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    Post by busman78 Sat Jul 30, 2016 3:55 pm

    The billet thermostat housing will only allow thermostat to be put in with hat up, spring to block (correct positioning), not tried to run without a thermostat yet, will give that a try tomorrow, thanks. Getting real good at draining the radiator.
    jdlaugh
    jdlaugh


    Number of posts : 298
    Location : Tulsa, OK
    Registration date : 2013-03-18

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    Post by jdlaugh Sat Jul 30, 2016 4:34 pm

    If you aren't already, use straight water 'til you figure this out. Better cooling and you don't feel so bad when you have to drain the radiator...

    By the way, how hot does it get? And where are you measuring that temp? Some parts of the engine get hotter than others. If it only gets to say 220 and you're measuring at a location some distance from the thermostat, it might not be running hot at all. With a 16# radiator cap water won't boil until it tops 250 degrees.

    Just throwing stuff at the wall.... Basketball
    busman78
    busman78


    Number of posts : 483
    Location : Oklahoma City, OK
    Registration date : 2012-07-11

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    Post by busman78 Sat Jul 30, 2016 4:58 pm

    I use a clean pan to catch the antifreeze so it is not getting scrapped. The sender is on the intake near the thermostat housing. For now I will have to stick with the mix, really do not want to completely drain the entire block.

    So far it has not gone past 230 while running because I shut the engine down. Once it passes 220 it is time to back off.

    I know there is circulation, had the cap off while watching the gauge, at 180-ish the water begins to move in the radiator. The engine feels hot, been around a lot of engines, this one radiates a bit too much especially compared to the 1st generation V8 Dakota I have.
    jdlaugh
    jdlaugh


    Number of posts : 298
    Location : Tulsa, OK
    Registration date : 2013-03-18

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    Post by jdlaugh Sat Jul 30, 2016 6:01 pm

    Ok. Last idea from me and it's more of a question: If you've bypassed the heater core and the hose loops from intake to pump, is that hot water circulating back and forth without going thru the radiator? It would only be a portion of the total flow, but might reduce system performance enough to cause overheating.

    I did a Google search on bypassing the heater and found a few discussions on how that led to overheating. Might be worthwhile to clamp that bypass hose off -- to stop the bypass -- and see if it has an impact.

    busman78
    busman78


    Number of posts : 483
    Location : Oklahoma City, OK
    Registration date : 2012-07-11

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    Post by busman78 Sat Jul 30, 2016 7:17 pm

    I appreciate the ideas, gives additional avenues for possible resolution.

    Just did some reading on bypassing, one of those split decision subjects. Not sure when Mopar started using a pump bypass, by the early 80's they had a huge one, attached a picture of my hose configuration you can see the factory bypass right below the loop I have for the heater bypass. I will try the no thermostat first tomorrow then block the loop for round two, one item at a time.

    This is a quote from Hod Rod magazine, which kind of makes sense.
    "All engines that run a thermostat need to have some type of bypass provision to avoid localized hot spots, minimize the chance of steam pockets developing, promote even and rapid warm-up, and prevent water-pump cavitation"

    Runs Hot - Out of Ideas 360_ho10
    jdlaugh
    jdlaugh


    Number of posts : 298
    Location : Tulsa, OK
    Registration date : 2013-03-18

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    Post by jdlaugh Sat Jul 30, 2016 8:04 pm

    Hmmm. I was under the impression the "bypass" directs flow back to the water pump, bypassing the radiator when the thermostat is closed. That allows water to circulate around the engine while it heats up, avoiding hot spots, etc., as per Hot Rod. Once the thermostat opens, it closes the bypass and water then flows thru the radiator. With the heater hose looped like you have it, it allows a bypass that's not controlled by the thermostat.

    Of course, I could be about six miles off base. I'm no expert on any of this stuff and it's past my bedtime.  Sleep

    Hope you figure it out!
    dix
    dix
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    Location : pittsburgh pa
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    Post by dix Sun Jul 31, 2016 3:07 am

    does the bottom rad hose have a spring type support in the hose ?? when the hose gets hot
    the hose can collapse
    running with out a thermostat will let the water flow faster, not allowing the rad to cool the water,
    I'm running a 160 stat. my logic is to start  cooling the water before it gets to 180.
    I also built a scoop  into the belly pan to send more air up to the engine & rad area,

    Also look under the van and look where the air can escape under the engine area with  out helping to cool the engine,   Near the starter area i installed extra sheet metal  there. also found this picking material at work. similar to a sponge material and used it to help seal off areas where air would just pass under the engine,
    All these dog houses suck. they trap hot air at the top /back side of the box.
    Scottie a member here found a rear defroster fan motor from a earlier mopar you can find on e-bay.
    install this in the side of the dog house behind the drivers seat, so it sucks the air out , then lay out the floor with the frame so you can drill a 2 " hole  thru the floor into the top of the frame, use either 1 1/2 or 2" abs plastic pipe from the flan thru the floor, dump the hot air into the frame , So you don't have a pipe hanging under the van.  I hooked up a switch so when needed it can be turned on. running down the hiway  on . hot asphalt this drops my temps down by 20 degrees. about 6 of us are running this and it does help
     I was running 360 exhaust  manifolds cast iron into duel exhaust I swapped that out for ceramic coated block hugger street rod (shortie) headers. also swapped out the starter for a newer gear reduction starter (for more room for the headers ) and this also helped
    and lastly i don't understand all the numbers you posted   I don't do this for my living,  test the vacuum at the carb, running 2,500 rpm then move the distributor to get the highest vacume number on the gauge around 20 / 22, back off the distributor a hair tighten the dist, down and test this
    out, you can mark the dist before hand  and return to your setting if needed.

    Hope all this helps, let me know if you need pics,
    jdlaugh
    jdlaugh


    Number of posts : 298
    Location : Tulsa, OK
    Registration date : 2013-03-18

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    Post by jdlaugh Sun Jul 31, 2016 4:44 am

    Yea, forget what I said about a test run without a thermostat. Bad Idea.
    Digz
    Digz


    Number of posts : 3794
    Location : United States Six Lakes MI
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    Post by Digz Sun Jul 31, 2016 6:56 am

    When you had the rad mounted low did you have an in-line fill in the upper radiator hose?
    busman78
    busman78


    Number of posts : 483
    Location : Oklahoma City, OK
    Registration date : 2012-07-11

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    Post by busman78 Sun Jul 31, 2016 3:49 pm

    What a useless day, replaced the 180 thermostat with a 160, just took longer to overheat. While that was going on played with the timing. Dix back in the day I would time race engines by vacuum, they did not have vacuum advance on the distributor and it was a way to squeak the best performance, we also ran 100 octane. But for the fun of it I did it to this engine, temporarily that is, at max vac then backed off to 20hg the timing was at 18* BTDC giving 52* at 3,000 rpm which is a recipe for detonation, too much weight lousy fuel will blow a piston every time. The 5* I have now was where the engine settled back to at idle after setting the timing to 35* BTDC at 3,000 rpm which is an ideal timing for a fairly stock Mopar.

    I do adjust idle mixture with both tach and vacuum gauge. All those other numbers are confirmation the engine is not running lean.

    When the radiator was lower the hose I used on top was corrugated, no way to put an inline filler, hence the reason for raising the radiator.

    Did the old fashion sheet of paper test to confirm the fan is sucking air through the radiator, oh yea from about six inches away it will capture the paper. Did a little sneak from the sides and the fan is doing what it is suppose to, drawing through the radiator, it did not snatch the paper from me.

    Dix, in time I plan on adding some kind of air evacuation for the dog house, but for now it is open, got to get this puppy to cool before closing it up.

    The exhaust manifold are not 360's, they are 1992 early 93 5.2L only exhaust manifolds, pretty close to the old factory 340 race manifolds, these have been ceramic coated. They are not quite 2-1/4", good flowing.

    jdlaugh here is another picture of the bypass, I did clamp the smaller 5/8" heater hose, made no difference for there is a factory 1" bypass hose in the same location.
    Runs Hot - Out of Ideas Img_1412
    BADBADGER
    BADBADGER


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    Post by BADBADGER Sun Jul 31, 2016 6:10 pm

    Recently had situation with autometer coolant gauge. I rewired my 67 A100 using a Painless wire kit. I used the water temp sending unit included with the wiring kit and not the one supplied with the auto meter gauges. The engine temp would increase to over 220 degrees. I checked the coolant temp inthe rad with amanual thermometer and it was at 180 to 190. changed the the temp sender to the one included with the autometer gauge and it solved the problem.
    So have you validated the coolant temp with a good thermometer in the rad neck?
    If not then i suggest taking that step.
    If the coolant temp is what the gauge shows then I would suspect a bad water pump or collapsing hose. Good luck, keep the posts coming someone is going figure it out..
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    Post by Guest Mon Aug 01, 2016 9:09 am

    Your pics are bad, but a simple question. How far back is the fan from the rad.?
    busman78
    busman78


    Number of posts : 483
    Location : Oklahoma City, OK
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    Post by busman78 Mon Aug 01, 2016 9:23 am

    Bad?

    The tip of the fan blade is 1" from the core, that is 1" at top and 7/8" at the bottom since the engine has a little tilt to it.
    Kma4444
    Kma4444


    Number of posts : 44
    Location : Anderson, SC
    Registration date : 2016-07-28

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    Post by Kma4444 Tue Aug 02, 2016 4:33 am

    That's a tough one for sure. The only scenarios I can come up with are either a combustion leak into the cooling system, which are difficult to detect when they are small. Using a block check kit is the foolproof way. If there are combustion gasses pushing water out of the head then you will get what you have. A pressure test won't show a leak that only happens under combustion pressure but the above mentioned test kit will absolutely find it or rule it out.

    This may not be possible, but any chance the water pump is for a serpentine belt application and is reverse rotation??? Again, that may be reaching but you have done so much trying to find the problem.........
    rustytoolss
    rustytoolss


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    Post by rustytoolss Tue Aug 02, 2016 9:54 am

    I did not see in your posts, but are you still using the six cylinder radiator , with your V8 ?. Has the radiator been cleaned/flushed ? Do you have a belly pan ?
    A flex fan is not worth the money you paid for it. A good 6 blade fixed fan is far better. And a clutch fan is even better.
    A water pump for an air conditioned car flows more water.
    I have a stewart warner temp gauge that is not accurate. Stewart warner said +or- 10% is fine BullSh!t . Mine shows 240*  and is really 210*(at which point my electric fan turns on)
    Good luck with your problem.
    busman78
    busman78


    Number of posts : 483
    Location : Oklahoma City, OK
    Registration date : 2012-07-11

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    Post by busman78 Tue Aug 02, 2016 9:58 am

    kma4444, the pump is a new Mopar LA style CW pump, now unless somebody put the impeller on backwards, but I have watched the waler flow into the top when the thermostat opened.

    Now I have never heard of a engine block tester, looked it up, cool tool, popped on down to the NAPA store and bought one, I like tools, probably would of bought one of these back when I worked on air cooled VW's just to have it.

    Below are the pictures of the test.

    Don't get much for $46 these days.
    Runs Hot - Out of Ideas Img_1416

    Ready to test
    Runs Hot - Out of Ideas Img_1414

    Oh $H!T - The color you do not want to see
    Runs Hot - Out of Ideas Img_1413

    Yep it it did change color
    Runs Hot - Out of Ideas Img_1415

    Well that pretty much seals the fate for this project for a long time to come, got too much in it scrap and not in the budget to continue. Oh well looks like the old girl is going to be a garage queen, was hoping to have her out on the road this summer and sporting a new paint job by fall.

    kma4444 I do appreciate the recommendation about the block tester, never would of trip across that idea given the overall low mileage of this engine. Course now I do have another cool tool, did I mention I like tools.
    Kma4444
    Kma4444


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    Post by Kma4444 Tue Aug 02, 2016 11:11 am

    UGH!!!!! That stinks. Could just be a head gasket, that's an easy/cheap enough thing to fix if not particularly quick. The magnum heads are known to crack fairly often. I went to the junkyard and pulled a set off a B van with the idea that they would replace the original 318 heads on my original engine. That was a fun couple hours in July pulling those with hand tools. Got them home and found them both cracked. That completed my decision to swap to the Hemi.

    The LA family of engines are not blessed with lots of head bolts so having a leaking gasket is certainly not out of the question. Hope you get it sorted, nothing worse than getting that far along and having to back-burner it.
    donivan65
    donivan65
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    Post by donivan65 Tue Aug 02, 2016 11:27 am

    wouldnt hurt to try a can of head gasket sealer in it now,,,,,
    busman78
    busman78


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    Post by busman78 Tue Aug 02, 2016 2:41 pm

    There is a lot things I could do, would do, pouring a can of that stuff in is not one of them, I have seen the good, the bad, the ugly of liquid head sealers, this engine is a low mileage unit, had the oil pan off, it is super clean, so unfortunately I have enough respect for the engine that I would rather see this project sit until the time is right to rebuild the engine than to reach for a quick fix and pour some goo into it.

    But thanks for the suggestion, some probably would, I won't.
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    Post by Guest Tue Aug 02, 2016 4:17 pm

    So, you either have a cracked block, head or blown gasket, sucks all around. I'll keep my fingers crossed that it's the easy/cheap one to fix, Good Luck.
    busman78
    busman78


    Number of posts : 483
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    Post by busman78 Tue Aug 02, 2016 5:49 pm

    Being a Magnum engine all the V8's were very prone to cracking the heads, mother Mopar blew the design big time. It will be a while before it gets any attention, suspect a set of EQ heads are in the future for it.
    rustytoolss
    rustytoolss


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    Post by rustytoolss Tue Aug 02, 2016 6:18 pm

    busman78 wrote:Being a Magnum engine all the V8's were very prone to cracking the heads, mother Mopar blew the design big time. It will be a while before it gets any attention, suspect a set of EQ heads are in the future for it.
    That's why I did not install magnum heads on my 273. The old LA parts are more durable.
    busman78
    busman78


    Number of posts : 483
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    Post by busman78 Tue Aug 02, 2016 7:09 pm

    Good choice since they are not a plug and play swap, oiling to the heads is different, requires the LA to use magnum lifters, push rods and rockers, the bolt pattern for the intake is different than the LA so that means a re-drill of your LA intake or buy new. All issue that can be overcome, except the cracking, that was a piss poor design.

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