Market Value On Early Van's

I have a question for us Vanner's..!!!...Why has the cost of everything you can imagine from buying a soda to a house gone up and the value of these van's has not..!!!..I can not believe all the ones listed for 3-4k some even less and some decent shaped ones also I am looking everyday.... I know in the hot rod hobby or even the muscle car hobby 3-4k wont even get you a striped shell of a car or maby a nice crate motor .....I mean its good for us the buying value is low but what about someone like me I "NOW" have well over 20k in mine and about 1,000 hours labor with still the interior to do no rust repair on the body just 1 repaint everything new or rebuilt if I listed mine for 15k everyone would probley laugh at me..!!!...I have put just as much money and labor in restoring my early van as I did on my 66 Nova,,,My 62 Bel-Air,,,my 67 Impala,,,Why are people not willing to pay 14-15k for a finished van..???...I just don't get it.... I realize we are a small group but look on face book there thousands of people on numerous vanning sites I cant keep up with them all...Even vanners from Norway,,, England all over the world these earlys have been becoming "Very" popular over the past couple of years unless you go to Grundy or some specialty insurance company the local ones want nothing to do with a old van State Farm would not insure mine for replacement value why do people (Vanners) refuse to pay more than 8-10k for a finished early.??? some even less when they paid 20-30k for there modern everyday vechial no questions asked..!!!...Maby its a dumb question..!!!...

I certainly am not claiming to be any kind of expert, but I've been playing with old cars for 50 years. I generally restore and sell 1 car a year(as a hobbyist--not professionally). I'll start by saying that vans in general have the worst resale or depreciation of all other vehicles. Don't get me wrong, I like vans----but most people do not----thus poor resale value. The other mistake I see people make when restoring an old vehicle is paying others to do the work they themselves cannot or will not do. It's practically impossible to recover that money at sale time. You notice I said I sell those cars I restore. I figured out a long time ago that unless I was doing the lion's share of the restoration, I was doomed to take a loss on the very vehicle I was inevitably selling. Messing with old cars is a hobby and hobbies cost money. Speaking of money, try getting a bank loan on an antique vehicle. This is where the average guy is out. Average guys aren't carrying around 15K to 20K in cash.(generally) This is what keeps prices down---a guy might see and want a $15K old van, but will probably buy one for 6K to 8K because that's what he can afford. By the way 6K to 8K is a real sweet spot for selling old cars---I speak from experience( both Ebay and Craigs) The next sweet spot I've found is 12K to 15K---this would be for your more mainstream cars---i.e. your 66 Nova, 62 Bel-Air, etc. I have bought, sold, and restored all of the above. Again, I'm certainly no expert, but it is very easy to get 15K to 20K wrapped up in an old vehicle that would never bring half of that in the open market. You have to ask your self----if this is something I love doing, then costs really don't matter. I just hope I can continue my "hobby", and just break even. My 2 cents worth.
Mike

Thanks Mike your right..Well Explained... ...

Vans are niche or fringe vehicles, not mainstream like muscle cars and will always be lower priced.  As much as we like them, its a small market segment and the old supply and demand thing kicks in...there are exception for some super nice restorations that find the right buyer, but in general vans are much less popular than even pickup trucks in today's market and in future years they will fade even further as the generation who owned them in their youth, just like the muscle car owners gets older and fades away from old car ownership, just like you almost never even see a Model T or Model A era car at a car show these days, the generation that owned and restored them is gone...just enjoy them now...think about this, in the near future, kids born today will never even learn how to drive a car, self driving cars will be the norm in 20+ years and you will need a special license to operate an older manually driven car....gas powered manually operated vehicles, our vans included, will be a thing of the past and pretty much worthless...glad I won't be around for that era and future folks will say the same thing, glad I wasn't around when you had to drive a car!

And remember.....it's not "inflation" least that's what they keep telling us.

I have to say I agree with everyone so far as to why they don't bring the big money. I will add from a blue collar worker I don't have that kind of money to purchase a finished van or classic car either. But when I look at what you get for your money...a classic car such as Camaro, mustang, Chevelle, chargers and so on can be put back together with after market parts a lot easier then our vans and trucks. Also the fact that custom vehicles are hard to put a price on because many are built by people who have no credentials in customizing vehicles (doesn't meen they can't build a nice vehicle). The classic car (muscle cars ) can have there originality traced back and you can visually see the stock parts in place and if they are correct. Unless the van is strictly stock, you can't see the custom work that's been done behind the walls, under the bed, or how good the welding is. "custom' is hard to put a price tag on, and even harder to spend the money when you don't know who built it and how well it was built. And lets face it...a "stock" muscle car will always be worth more then a "stock" 60's van, other then a VW all window bus. Until people gain more builders trust, like Gene...we may have to settle for what we can get. If pictures are taken a long the way that can show the build from beginning to end that will certainly help bring more money. And lets face facts also....the demand for these is not there yet as it is for a Hemi charger. This alone will make our vans and trucks have less value. jm2c.

I had hoped to one day own a 69 Camaro, a 65 GTO, a 70 Trans-Am, a 60 Impala, a 65 Chevelle 2-door (300) wagon etc...... I've also coveted many pre-war hot rods, as well, but I'll never own any of these because they ARE JUST TOO EXPENSIVE in any kind of restorable condition!
So what to do?
I concentrate on those vehicles that I consider cool and CAN AFFORD......Old Suburbans and Panels can be found reasonable with patience.....Third gen Camaros are plentiful and cheap right now..... I've got a thing for 91-96 Chevy/Buick/Olds wagons which can be acquired in running condition for under a Grand!.... Then there are vans.....They are becoming more rare all the time because they are being crushed at an alarming rate, not because folks are collecting them!
I learned long ago that if you spend on a vehicle project as if you will keep it, you will never get your money out..... But so what?  Us blue collar guys have lost the classic muscle cars to the pro restorers and speculators already..... Is this what we want to see happen with the vans, as well?
I build stuff for my own enjoyment and If someone wants to bid more than I have invested, then I might be convinced to sell.... If not, I guess I'm (happily) stuck with my bad investment!

P.S. It is a generally accepted premise among "collector car" guys that at whatever quality level you wish to end up at.....That it is cheaper to buy a finished car rather than to build it yourself.....The exceptions to this are IF 1) You got the desirable restoreable car at a "right" price 2) You are able to do 100% of the work yourself and 3) You are able to market your finished project to people who will pay "mad money" for what you built.
Most folks decide they don't want something any more and will "compete" on the open market by cutting the price as much as necessary to sell without regard for their investment. Basically, there is an oversupply of cool stuff competing for limited motivated buyers and thats where the pricing falls!

Part of the reason I am interested in old vans is because they are not really going up in value. That means guys help each other out in a way that you just don't see where everyone is trying to make a buck. This is my hobby, so I expect that the biggest return I get on my investment is the pleasure I get out of tinkering with the old beast. If I can't get to sleep I can think about an engine swap and which rear ratio would work best and pretty soon I am sawing logs. Put a price on that.

If you build an old vehicle thinking you can sell it for more than you invested, you started out with the wrong idea. If you build an old vehicle thinking you can drive it for several years of pure enjoyment, you are on the right path. If someone comes along and offers you more than you spent, and you are willing to let you pride and joy go, you are a winner. If you get tired of driving the old beast and want something different, you take what you can get and move on. It all boils down to what you are willing to invest into the vehicle you have and how long you think you will enjoy driving it. Its all relative.

If you build an old vehicle thinking you can sell it for more than you invested, you started out with the wrong idea. If you build an old vehicle thinking you can drive it for several years of pure enjoyment, you are on the right path. If someone comes along and offers you more than you spent, and you are willing to let you pride and joy go, you are a winner. If you get tired of driving the old beast and want something different, you take what you can get and move on. It all boils down to what you are willing to invest into the vehicle you have and how long you think you will enjoy driving it. Its all relative.

Thanks for the reply's Guy's you are "All" right and I am thinking different now I am kinda glad there is a small market for these vans and the demand is not great so the prices are low if this was a expensive hobby I would not be in it and would probley not have all the parts I have....I built my van to my liken and taste and did not worry about getting my money back and never had any intension's of selling it... I think we are better off with the prices the way they are so we all can afford to have a hobby that we don't have to mortgage the house for like I said I have done it all Speed boats,,Muscle cars,,,Hot rods,,And this vanning hobby is really the only one I could afford with out running up all my credit cards again...!!!...So you all told me what I needed to hear I am "Happy" with the way things are now and hope they stay that way a good clean honest hobby that the average guy can afford with out having to live it it when it is finished..!!!...Thanks Again for all the advice its priceless..!!!... ..Joe Van...

I've already more than resolved myself to the fact that I will never recoup my restoration costs on my van.  I never intended to have to restore it, either, but circumstances dictated it unless I just dumped it for a lot less than I paid in the first place.  It will also be the last ground up resto I do.  I may buy something needing a few things, but not everything.  

My opinion on the vans, and I follow a lot of classic car pages, etc, is that these are far too often overly customized.  They become very personal with shag walls, etc.  I wouldn't generally want someone else's custom touches unless they are subtle.

I feel Bill's silver van is one of the classiest, cleanest vans ever done.  It's image appears in more G-10 van image searches than any.  A new member just posted it as an example.

I plan for my van to very clean with little overly custom touches.  I like it that way personally and I hope that I keep it simple and clean enough that I can still sell it for the most possible in couple of years if I decide that I just want to do something different and can't keep room for more vehicles.  Even then, I'll be considerably upside down.

The more one airbrushes, shags the walls and paints funky colors, the less mass appeal they will have.  I realize it's about personal taste, but one has to reconsider resale when building a car unless they to keep it the rest of their lives. I've also convinced myself that we are custodians of these vehicles and that we are making the classic vehicle and van world a better place by saving them and caring for them.  That makes the financial pain of getting it there a bit less painful.  
 My two cents...

The gone but not forgotten Dennis Farris of D &D disc brakes once told me in his humble jolly gravely voice.  "It's a labor of love"

There was a day. In the heart of sanding on it for untold hours I thought I really like it here in this garage. I was sweating. Hot and sore. But I felt I was in my comfort zone. I was as happy in that garage sanding on that thing than I was at home or on vacation or anywhere else. …

I guess that would be a labor of love

These vans have been so neglected and abused by previous owners, many of them are nearly junk. These poor vans have a reputation of being 'Hippy vans' or 'scooby vans', and unfortunately associated with counterculture and drug use. The 'hippy van' reputation is a huge turn-off for 99% of the population.  Hippies were not known for even taking a shower, let alone taking care of vehicle maintenance, or fixing stuff when it breaks, so most early vans suffer terribly from five decades of abuse and neglect.

A 'finished' van usually has been overly-customized to the owner's taste, with all kinds of non-stock modifications and this detracts from value rather than adding value.  

As Lazarus pointed out, so many of the early vans coming up for sale are overly customized and he is right that the more 'custom' mods a van has, the less mass appeal it has.  It seems many van owners do not want to admit this, but a customized van really degrades the value and ultimately limits the resale market.

Take a 1st gen chevy for example, a stock, unmolested van is VERY hard to find.  Stock factory pieces like original bumpers and mirrors are highly coveted.  A very clean, rust free body is most valuable.  When you go to sell, the typical buyer is looking for a nice clean example that is unmolested.  A simple clean body, with no custom mods, no rust and no dents is worth a premium.  If it runs and drives, that is a big selling point as well.

Out of all the vans that get posted for sale here every day, very few meet that ideal criteria.

The scary thing I see with "low value" hobby vehicles such as 91-96 wagons, old flatbottoms, and these vans, is that a lot of this stuff ends up being scrapped because there was nobody willing to step up and rescue by bidding a bit higher than the scrap guys.....The ability to find and buy this stuff is "finite" and the available stuff is becoming more rare all the time.....

dan nachel wrote:If you build an old vehicle thinking you can sell it for more than you invested, you started out with the wrong idea. If you build an old vehicle thinking you can drive it for several years of pure enjoyment, you are on the right path. If someone comes along and offers you more than you spent, and you are willing to let you pride and joy go, you are a winner. If you get tired of driving the old beast and want something different, you take what you can get and move on. It all boils down to what you are willing to invest into the vehicle you have and how long you think you will enjoy driving it. Its all relative.

I think Dan has a good way of approaching it, and it's the way I feel to a certain extent.  When restoring something for more than you can eventually resell it, you have to look at it as "rental" money for the time you used.  A lease of sorts.  It cost "X" dollars to get you there and you kept it "X" many years and used it.  Then you turn it over to the next guy for hopefully a price for which you can live. Unfortunately, most of us when purchasing want the best "deal" possible and we end up beating the next guy down on an already fairly priced vehicle.  It's human nature, I guess.  

Kookie mentioned finding pure stock examples.  He has been at this far longer than me, but I would think the super stock crowd is still going to be slim unless you want to parade it around as stock original or have that personal satisfaction.  Most folks here seem to favor swapping out for bigger motors, tires etc. Even with some upgrades, it's still nice to keep original where possible. For me, hardware with a little pitting would trump a mint example that just came off the assembly line, etc.

I think changes like larger motors, automatic transmissions and hwy gears make these more marketable.  Most people looking at cars want a little heft to their motors and automatic on these has to be a heck of a lot easier to drive.  There are so few stock example in G vans that I can thick of here.  Ditater and Scotty's Sportvan come to mind.  If I found those from the start, I doubt I would molest them at all because they are so nice and original.

The bone-stock thing is more about starting with a blank canvas......You don't have to rip out obsolete customizing and deal with previous owners' cutting and drilling.....You get to be the person to "ruin" it to your own specifications! I might consider something that was tastefully done as having "value added improvements", but those improvements would have to match my vision exactly to be worth paying anything extra for.....

I have a different take on the whole value thing. What I mean is that all you old school van guys don't even realize that you're on the cutting edge of the "next big thing"! Look at all the bearded, 20 something hipsters starting to take interest in the earlys. You can't put your cool old Triumph in a minivan! Rat rods would have been called rust buckets 10 years ago. Now it's "patina". If anyone wants to get more money when they sell their early, just say it's a numbers matching, barn find. Otherwise, embrace the title of "Legend" to the flock of skinny jean wearing newbies that are just now starting to look at old vans as a representation of their forward thinking.