More fun with squeaks

Some may recall I've been battling suspension squeaks on this '67 108 van for a while. I wound up replacing all the spring bushings in the front end, and that seemed to have helped a bit, but after driving the van in the late winter rains here a bit, the squeaks returned in force today. It was so bad I couldn't stand it any more.

Squirting some water based silicone lube at the rear bushings, and some lithium grease at the sides of the springs, didn't so anything to fix it.

So I got out the jack and stands, let the front axle dangle with the wheels off the ground. Used a big pry bar to separate the leaves as much as possible, and used some Liquid Wrench chain lube to spray as much as possible between the leaves, but keeping it off the bushings.

Lo and behold, hallelujah, the squeaking from the front end is now pretty much all gone. I figure the chain lube is a good choice because it first can flow into tight spaces, and then it sets up so it doesn't wash away so quickly as grease or oil might.

Eventually though I'll probably have to remove the springs, take them apart, wire wheel all the rust off, maybe give them a nice coat of primer and enamel, and then reassemble with more chain lube. I'll see how long this latest fix lasts first. But at least I know the problem isn't in the bushings (thank God).

There IS another problem with the bushings though. The previous owner had the front springs arced flatter so the front end would ride lower. Combined with the 1/4" shorter shackle plates I put in this fall along with the new rear (of front spring) bushings, this seems to have resulted in the springs being too long and bottoming out against the frame mount for the shackles. I can see a dent in the undercoating where that contact is being made. It might also explain the clunking that I've been hearing on one section of washboard road in town. At this point all I can do it test drive some more and listen, and if the clunking continues I'll reinstall the old, longer shackle side plates which should give a little bit more room (they will swing in a wider arc) before they bottom out on the frame shackle mount. I kept the old shackle side plates and they are in reasonable shape. I'd just like to avoid having to do that R&R if possible. The best fix would probably be to arc the current springs back to their previous curvature, whatever that was, which would effectively shorten them back to spec.

My first impression is that the clunking is reduced or gone away since I lubed the leaf springs. If so might not need to do anything at present. Like I say, I'll do more testing and keep my ears tuned.

I'd put the original shackles back on, will cure that noise.
I did the same thing with the grease between the leaves
Sure made a difference.

Glad you are getting the squeaks out.  I've had the same issue with my A108.  For now I'm blasting the edges of the springs with a PB blaster type of penetrating oil.

Some day, I hope to rebuild them.

Good leaf info at this site.
http://www.eatondetroitspring.com/leaflubricantleaflinerstipinserts/


This guy is gettin' busy.
http://www.dieseltruckresource.com/dev/showthread.php?t=224332

What do you think of Eaton's claim that grease attacks the type of steel used on modern leaf springs (6150)? This claim is on his website and is repeated elsewhere on the internet, but a lot of other comments indicate most people think it's BS.

I happen to think it's BS also. I'm a machinist and had to learn some metallurgy along the way... and I don't know of any steel that could be attacked by grease. One exception MIGHT be moly grease, which under heat and pressure could generate an acid (molybdenum bisulfide). However I don't think leaf springs get hot enough for this to occur, and this wouldn't be a concern with lithium based greases. It's mainly a concern for internal combustion motors, as I recall. Moreover, the 6150 spring steel used in modern leaf springs is OIL HARDENED, which would tend to indicate it is not adversely affected by oil to begin with.

The majority of comments I read seem to indicate that the main threat to modern leaf springs is from rust. I suspect the reason why mfg's have gone away from grease filled spring coverings is for cost reasons - it's cheaper just to use plastic or teflon inserts between the leaves. Or, in the case of 2nd gen early GM vans, nothing at all.

I'll be looking at replacing the shackle side plates with the originals in due course. Not looking forward to it, it's a dirty messy job, but I've done it enough by now that it should be relatively quick.

The other source of the clunking under the driver's side may also be the heavy clutch and transmission linkages slapping against their steel guides. I might try to put some rubber insulators in there to see if it quiets them down.

The possibility of the grease attracting dirt and grime
acting like an abrasive might be the reason for the step
away from the grease, the nylon glide pads are less needy
of attention. Just my two cents worth.

Yes, the attraction and trapping of grit would be a good reason either to go back to covering the springs to hold in the grease and keep out the grit, or go to a dry form of lubrication, which is basically what the glide pads provide.

The web site with the drilling of the springs to accept the polyurethane glide pads is interesting. I wouldn't have thought it would be a good idea to drill out hardened springs, but I suppose with a cobalt bit it's possible. Even better would be a carbide bit - or end mill - but that would be beyond what is typically available at most hardware stores. I'd also do a test drilling in regular mild steel or iron. I have a set of cobalt drill bits, but I have noticed that they all drill oversize. Perhaps because they are from Harbor Freight.

Update: We had some late April rains and I drove the van in the wet. It might have washed away some of the chain lube, cause a little spring squeak has returned. Short term fix is to jack up the front again so the wheels hang and squirt some more chain lube between the leaves. Not sure what the long term solution will be. Drilling the ends of the leaves and inserting plastic pads is probably the best solution, though. Can't see any other way of using plastic to ease the squeaks, without the plastic getting spit out, but I'll be noodling on it a bit more.

Well, I lubed the front springs again, and sure enough the squeaks went away.

This time I made it into a bit of an experiement: On the left side springs, I used white lithium grease in a spray can. The spray feature, with a little red plastic tube attached, made it easy to get the grease into the tightest of spaces. I also used a lever bar to help separate the leaves for better access.

On the right hand side springs, I used some old Never Seize compound. This is the good old stuff packed with lead. It comes with a pretty thick brush in can, so I used a popsicle stick to help spread it further inside the springs.

I'll see which side starts squeaking first.

Meanwhile still noodling on how I might be able to add plastic spacers to the ends of the leaves without having to disassemble them and drill holding holes. So far, no lights have gone on upstairs.

Well, phase one of the The Experiment has concluded.

The side with the "Led Plate" is still relatively quiet. The side with the white lithium grease started chirping like crazy.

Today I tried phase two. I cut some 1/16" or thinner black HDPE plastic sheet into 3" wide strips. I stuck one between the first two leaves (uppermost) at both ends of the eye on the side that started squeaking again. The plastic extends about 6" into the leaves. The excess length I looped around the eye to help hold it in place. Took a test drive. The result was impressive. All sqeaking gone, again. I'll be monitoring the plastic inserts to see if they get inched out of the space. Might have to figure out how to anchor them.

Well I started driving the Scooby van to work this week, after about two months off on disability (another tale).

The clunking was really kind of bothering me. It sounded like it was coming front the front end.

So... I tried adjusting the adjustable front shocks. I had them on full soft, so I upped it a notch or two (I think there are five settings. It rode better but still clunked.

Next up today I sheathed the shifter rods in 5/8" ID heater hose, split down the side. A little quieter (they do bang around) and the shifting is slightly damped, but ... still the damn clunk.

Finally I got out my wrenches and checked the bolts. Oops. The shackle bolts were VERY loose. Luckily I used aircraft nuts on them so the nuts didn't spin off, but still. Looked up the torque specs and retorqued them to the prescribed 50 ft/lbs. Haven't test driven it yet (pizza in the oven) but I'm 99.9999% sure that was the cause of the clunking.

Why did they get so loose? I don't know. I'm fairly certain I torqued them to 50 when I installed the new bushings, shackles, and bolts back there. But maybe there was a false torque, or maybe I just zoned out and never did torque them. I will re-check them weekly and if they show signs of loosening again I'll have to think about what to do next.

Anyway, it's always nice to have a mystery virtually solved.

Later!

Damn, clunk still there.

But at least my front shackle bolts are tight.

I'm thinking my next step will be to pull the front shocks as Donny suggested a while back.

Heres something im doing - remember (anyone??) springs still made for hot rods called= "Posies Springs"? they had some like nylon type material between the heaves ends where they could slide! This eased the springs uses on each leaf. Now i have used a material called ="UHMB" its man made & like a nylon yet slick as can be - doesnt wear much at all. It comes in about any sizes needed & can be cut with a hacksaw or band saw. in different widths & lenghts & even in sheets & on rolls. I will be using some 2 " wide & cut to lenghts needed for the spring ends. Had this roll of it for years. Might try finding it somewhere near you - like a fasterner supplier or materials supplier? Just a thought.

I had a cluck on my front also... Found my sway bar was bent and hit when turning or hitting a bump.

No sway bar on this '67 van.

One thing I've noticed when working on the front end. When I jack up the frame and let the wheels dangle, the shocks are beyond fully extended, and I have to raise the axle a bit in order to remove the shocks. I think this means the shocks are too short for this vehicle, and I wonder if it's possible they got damaged during aggressive driving when the suspension was fully extended and the shocks were the only thing holding it back...?

,,,you can probably make these inserts work,,,,


http://www.ebay.com/itm/Leaf-Spring-End-Tip-Wear-Pad-Anti-Squeak-Insert-/181724478032?hash=item2a4f9f7a50&vxp=mtr

Thanks.

I've been using some black HDPE plastic I got from TAP and it seems to be working as inserts.

The clunking is the big problem now. I think it's the front shock, but I'll have to wait till Sat to disconnect it and test drive.

But thanks for the eBay link, I'll check it out later.

Yesterday after work I pulled the driver's side front shock. All the bolts were tight with no wiggling that I could see. Anyway, once it test drove it, I confirmed that the clunk had gone away on that side. I could still hear clunking from the passenger side, which still had its shock.

And yes, the thing handled a bit strange with only one shock in front. I only went 30 mph on surface streets, both for safety and because that's when the clunking was most noticeable.

Now I will recheck and see if the shock mounts were too loose. It's possible that the shocks have smaller eyelets than the bolt holes in the chassis, meaning that undersize bolts were used by the last installer, resulting in play. Or vice versa, the shocks have oversize bushings. If not, I may have to get new shocks. Sort of a shame, because these are fairly nice Rancho shocks with five damping adjustments.

Further investigation...

The upper shock mount bolt is a bit loose in the shock bushing. Also, the metal insert seems to be too short. So I think the metal tube insert needs to be replaced with something more snug around the bolt as well as a bit longer. The bolt itself has a shoulder that is a bit too short for the upper mount... while the overall bolt length is fine, the shoulder is only about 1.1 inches long, whereas the ID of the upper mount is more like 1.45 inches, and the OD is about 1.67 inches wide. The through hole in the upper mount is about .508" and that of the bushing tube about the same, a bit bigger at .512". But the bolt shoulder is about .494", so there is a bit too much play. Interestingly, the lower mount tube insert is very snug around its bolt, so I don't think it's contributing to the clunking.

I may have to just press out the existing upper bushing tube and fab up something more snug around the through bolt. Also headed out to the hardware store to try to find a through bolt with a longer shoulder.

The existing Rancho shock #9125 no longer seems to be available, but Rancho lists RS9000XL as the adjustable (now with 9 settings) replacement. About $100 ea. The non adjustable replacement, RS5114, is about $50 ea.

Serviced the driver's side shock today. As with many older vehicles worked on by a variety of mechanics of not always best practices, I found some goofs that I tried to fix.

I wound up changing the upper shock bushing. The old one was a genuine Rancho but looked kind of tweaked, with the internal bore smushed to one side. The internal steel spacer looked like it was way too short for the bushing. I got a new steel spacer at the hardware store and turned it down to where it would fit the upper shock mount better. I also had to turn down the replacement bushing because it was wider than the Rancho one, and anyway the Rancho one looked like it got well crushed anyway.

My guess is that at some point somebody installed a shock with a too short spacer, and with 75 ft lbs of torque, this bent in the sides of the upper shock mount so that a normal spacer and bushing won't work any more. Short of finding a micro hydraulic stretcher, I decided to go with the flow and adjust the new spacer and bushing to fit. Even so, it was a chore getting it all in place.

Once the upper shock mount was fit, I notice that the lower mount was offset on the axis of the upper shock mount through bolt. Not good. I wound up putting some heavy washers to shift the mounting point so that the shock didn't have to tweak its upper bushing as much. I figure that's how the upper bushing to smushed to one side. I would have added even more washers to make it perfectly aligned but ran out of bolt thread. Tomorrow when I work on the passenger side I'll get an even longer lower mount bolt and see how that works.

Bottom line is that a test drive showed the driver's side clunk is gone and so the shock was the source. I can still hear clunking comeing from the passenger side, and that will get addressed soon enough. Ran out of sunlight today!

On the shackle bolt loosening issue, I guess I thought that aircraft nuts would eliminate the need for lock washers. I guess I was wrong. Tomorrow I'll address that as well, and add lock washers to all four shackle bolts.

Later!

th shocks serviced. Replaced the upper shock bushings and spacers.

Also added lock washers to the shackle bolts, but looking at the old shackles, it looks like they came with jam nuts. I'll be picking some up at the local hardware store tomorrow and replacing the aircraft nuts and lock washers with proper jam nuts.

I'm thinking the jam nuts are a requirement because they don't put a torsional stress on the shackles, which could induce them to go out of alignment.

Other than all that, a test drive confirmed the clunking is gone on both sides.

jam nuts and lock washers?????  don't you have the correct shoulder bolts or sleeves that set the proper tension on the bushings once you torque them to 60 ft lbs?????

No, jam nuts instead of lock washers. And I have the correct bolts. The service manual sez 50 ftlbs not 60.

Update... I got some jam nuts at the hardware store and they weren't quite what I had in mind. What I *think* the original shackles had were Stover lock nuts. These have elliptical top threads that prevent loosening under vibration, and apparently last longer than nylon lock nuts (which is what was on there and was not staying put).

The jam nuts I got are thin nuts that you're supposed to tighten on top of the main nut... which would work, but is kind of fussy and a bother. Stover lock nuts would look much better... They are Grade C which apparently is equivalent to grade 8, fine for automotive.

The reason why I think the lock washers aren't ideal is because they will grab onto the shackle, perhaps preventing it from being aligned properly with the other side. It looks to me like a Stover lock nut would allow the shackle to seek its own center, so to speak, as would a nut/jam nut combination.

I'm sort of regretting having put lock washers on the shackles because they will probably raise a burr on the shakle which I'll have to grind or file off to get back to original condition.

If all else fails, I still have the original shackles, bolts, and lock nuts (which look like Stover type). Except one of the original lock nuts looks like it has lost its grip. Another solution is blue Loctite, which is a cheap and easy fix, except it can cause problems in later servicing if it binds too tightly (which I've seen blue Loctited nuts do on corroded bolts).

I've found some Stover lock nuts on the internet, I'm also gonna check the local auto parts stores to see if they carry them as well.

I was going to suggest a bit of lock tite. One thing about the shackles is it's easy to put a little heat on them if you do have any problems getting the stuff to break loose.

Thanks, that's a good trick for frozen Loctited nuts.

I found some Dorman 7/16-20 Stover type lock nuts at O'Reilly this afternoon. They aren't cheap, $1.25 ea, but probably worth it. And I confirmed that the old shackles had Stover type lock nuts as well. Most if not all of them are probably still good.

I think the new shackles came with nylon insert locknuts, which obviously don't work too good.

I'll probably drive the thing this week with the lock washers in place. The weekend will see another jacking up of the front end and replacement of the nylon lock nuts and lock washers with the "new" Stover type locknuts. I may also service the lower end of shocks, as I didn't have replacement bushings in hand when I did that work Sunday, but I do now.