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BRINGING IT ALL TOGETHER.... A's, G's & E's


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Twinpilot001
donivan65
kookykrispy
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    Question for Donivan! Front Disc Brakes

    kookykrispy
    kookykrispy


    Number of posts : 1533
    Location : Helendale, CA
    Age : 50
    Registration date : 2009-05-22

    Question for Donivan!  Front Disc Brakes Empty Question for Donivan! Front Disc Brakes

    Post by kookykrispy Mon Feb 10, 2014 7:05 am

    Hey Don!

    I got a set of the old BZ brackets. I'm wanting to do a front disc swap on my van. The parts list says '73 nova rotors and '74 half ton chevy van calipers.

    With these parts will I be able to still use 14" rims?? Are you using 14" wheels up front? If not, have you ever tried fitting various 14" rims? I have some awesome 14" vintage ET mags that I do not want to give up, so I hope I can find a disc brake set-up that will fit under these wheels.

    Thanks Don!


    I know you are familiar with the swap using the old BZ brackets… any other tips you can give me that is not on already in the instructions?
    donivan65
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    Post by donivan65 Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:36 am

    I think my buddy has Camaro 14" wheels on his brakes,,,,,,,,,mine are 15"  but it also depends on the offset of the wheels,,,,,,The original kit was for a hotrod,,,,,,I did not use some of the spacers,,,,,or tap holes in my steering arms and I used the steering stop bolt to mount the bracket also,,,,,,,,I guess you really need to mount a bracket, rotor and a caliper to an axle to see if a wheel has enough clearance to clear the caliper,,,,,those Nova rotors set your front wheels out about 3/8",,,,,,,,,I don't know that M1D's version would have the same clearance dimensions as the BZ one,,,,,,,,,





    Question for Donivan!  Front Disc Brakes Disk710
    kookykrispy
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    Post by kookykrispy Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:57 am

    Thanks Don, I appreciate your quick response. I don't mind the additional 3/8" outboard spacing. If you have any pics of details of the install, that would be wonderful. Spacers, steering stop bolt, etc. Tapping holes in the steering arms? I have not heard of this? Please explain, and hopefully, I will not have to do that.

    donivan65
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    Post by donivan65 Mon Feb 10, 2014 10:16 am

    Well Joe, you might of still been in grade school when we started putting these kits on our vans and other people have taken over making the brackets and could of changed the directions,,,,,,,but this is the original way they came,,,,,,,,,drilling and tapping the spindle?????   would you trust yourself to cut straight tight threads to hold the tie rods in place?



    Question for Donivan!  Front Disc Brakes Nova_d10
    Twinpilot001
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    Post by Twinpilot001 Mon Feb 10, 2014 10:24 am

    ive got to ask= so - what are these BZ adapters?/ who made them?/ any pix? how about specks on building some? Thanx.
    donivan65
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    Post by donivan65 Mon Feb 10, 2014 11:08 am

    Once upon a time,,,,,,we wanted to add front disk brakes to the solid front axle of our vans,,,,,,,,,Ben, (BZ),    found a hotrod kit that could be made to fit our vans with normal off the shelf parts,,,,,,,,Nova rotors,,,,Blazer calipers and brake hoses,,,,,,,,but then he stopped getting them made,,,,,,I think WildBill and Leadfoot started getting them made again later,,,,,,,then M1dadio gets a van but he does not like moving his shocks to make room for this kit,,,,,,so he reinvents the kit,,,,,,and does 3 more different types,  so he is the disk brake kit man in my book......


    Question for Donivan!  Front Disc Brakes Disk1b10
    Twinpilot001
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    Post by Twinpilot001 Mon Feb 10, 2014 11:17 am

    thanx doni 4 the explaining!! Im now curious as to what brackets  were used by the 2 people in the group?? Thats the bz brackets. like what were they origionally off / from?
    donivan65
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    Post by donivan65 Mon Feb 10, 2014 12:02 pm

    For a long time, nobody could get brackets,,,,,I tried to find what they actually were for,,,,I am thinking from something like a 30's roadster with a solid axle,,,,,,here is how I put mine on,,,and like I said M1D can't leave well enough alone so he made better versions,,,,,,,the major differences are does the caliper sit in front of or rear of the axle and is it a 1 piece or 2 piece front rotor......  


    Question for Donivan!  Front Disc Brakes Repair86


    Question for Donivan!  Front Disc Brakes Bracke10
    m1dadio
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    Post by m1dadio Mon Feb 10, 2014 1:51 pm

    The BZ brackets were originally designed for the many Gassers and Hot rods being built in a time that were using the Chevy van straight axle which was in much bone yard abundance back then. Those brackets were designed because the Chevy van spindle/bolt pattern is unique to the 1st and 2nd gen GM 1/2 ton vans, generally know as the G10 van. The brackets were not designed specifically for the van so issues like hub offset, shock and sway bar placement didn't need to be considered in their design as that generally would apply to a home built Gasser or Hot rod.
    Over the wide range of years and makes of GM, ford and Dodge straight axles vehicles there is about 14 different spindle/bolt patterns, All different and the 64 to 70 GM G10 van is all on its own. That is why thought the axles were abundant and cheep in junk yards there was no disc brake kits made to fit then and even less then zero made to fit the Van.
    Recognizing this need, I set out to, and did design disc brake conversion brackets that are designed specifically for the 64-70 G10 van only that doesn't involve you changing your vans suspension or steering , and at the least cost possible to the installer using readily available store bought parts. Other people who have the van axle in their hot rod, rat rod or Gasser are also calling me for brackets now and I direct then to somebody who has BZ brackets to sell.

    There are some "kits" out there designed for 40's chevy trucks and cars that come close to fitting the van spindle but still need all kinds of drilling, machining and relocating shocks and sway bars (generally changing your vans suspension and steering from stock design) to make them fit. And that job ends up costing more in the end. In my humble opinion it is not a good idea to go changing the geometry of the vans steering and suspension if you can avoid it. That is why I spent so much time, money and effort into designing a disc conversion made specifically for our vans.

    The BZ brackets are out there , they work , and the brackets can be purchased for less. Weather they end up costing the same or more to install in the end is debatable when you factor in all the other work and costs associated with making them work. And then you need to consider the reality of what you end up with when the job completed. All of this was taken into consideration as I designed my brackets.
    This brings to mind a wisdom spoken to me by an old mechanic some 40 years ago when I was an apprentice and then proven to me as time went on, over and over again and again.

    There is one law of the mechanical world that is as consistent as the law of gravity is on this Earth. That Law of the mechanical world is; "You get what you pay for". If you want good quality, you have to pay for "good quality", if you want the "best", you have to pay more, "the highest price" probably, and if "Cheaper" is your highest priority; a cheap installation is what you will get.

    As a "Delegate to the Federal Minister of Transport" and as an "Officer of Transport Canada", I feel compelled to stress this message. I bring this up again because I am aware some people have budget challenges. If you want to buy a cheaper engine or transmission due to budget restraints that's fine. You may make an OK deal and get away with it, but if that transmission blows up a week later you can learn from the experience and realize it wasn't cheaper in the end and all in all it was only a bunch of money thrown away. But I beg of you all, its a matter of public safety. Do not go cheap on you brakes. Oh yes you might get away with it once or twice and have had no accidents YET!.
    However should you encounter a catastrophic brake system failure, its not going to happen in your driveway, its going to happen right when you least want it to happen, right when you are pounding on the brake pedal trying to make a full on emergency stop or evasive maneuver. That life changing event will be right when you and others don't want a brake failure to happen. Being cheap on your brake system repairs or conversions is a safety threat to you and the general public at large.

    Whatever you choose about maintaining your vans brake system; Please don't go "cheap" on this part of your van. If its not in your budget to do a proper conversion then do a good rebuild of what you have now. The vans drum brakes can be made to be a good braking system relatively inexpensively.


    M1D
    RipVanArkie
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    Post by RipVanArkie Mon Feb 10, 2014 2:23 pm

    I have the BZ brakes on my 64 and wish I had another set of brackets for my dad's 65. I might have to have a pair made locally. Very easy install and the brackets were the most expensive part at the time $100. I bought mine from Ben (BZ) years ago. Not a "cheap" design, but less expensive and in the end, better than factory.

    While the BZ design is better than factory, it is less expensive than those that have been designed since (which are also better than factory).


    _________________
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    Rip

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    1967 Econoline Pickup
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    m1dadio
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    Post by m1dadio Mon Feb 10, 2014 4:08 pm

    Well if you have an unused set of BZ brackets don't sell them for $100 or you will be giving them away. These kinds of items keep going up in value . I do recall about 2 years ago a set of BZ brackets sold for around $350 plus shipping.   Not surprising considering the cost of labor these days.

    I and others have done a significant amount of shopping around to have brackets manufactured. The findings have been any fabricator who is willing to make less then 20 brackets at a time generally wants on average 4 to $500  for the first  and then around $270 for each single brackets there after regardless of how many you want. This is because they are labor intensive to make and the cost of skilled labor is high these days. Shop time is billed out at 50 to 100 bucks an hour. If you think you can make a bracket like this in a few hours then grab yourself a chunk of 3/8" plate steel and start chipping away at it. Youl find out a full day into it and one is not near done just how much is really involved.

    If you want to get "correctly made brackets" at around $100 each you have to go to the larger automated fabricators who wont even turn their shop lights on if your talking less then 20 brackets and the price only begins to become reasonable if you order 40 or more brackets at once because they want to load and use no less then one full sheet of metal into their machine at a time.  Any one else here could do this, so long as your willing to invest several thousand dollars that will take two years to sell and get your money back providing they made them all correctly.
    The brackets I have made in batches of 40 at a time are made at a good manufacturer of similar car parts in eastern North America about 4000 miles from where I live, because that's the best (price/quality) deal I could find and I pay extra for their guarantee of quality assurance inspections during production. I then manually inspect and measure every bracket to make sure they are exactly what I designed, and separate the acceptable from the ones that don't meet the specs go to scrap metal bin for destruction.
    The biggest factor effecting the cost is that the volume and demand is so soooo low in the vanning community. Average about 8,9 or 10  sets a year are sold.
    If the vanning community would be buying  1000 sets or more a year like we see in popular vehicle like 50's and early 60's Chevells, mustangs and Novas then you would be able to order 2 or 3000 brackets be made at a better price and Companies like CCP would be selling them. But the Van market is just too small for that.

    Then on the other hand if you don't measure your time as being worth much and you really enjoy fabrication and building things. Anybody with some equipment and fabricating skills could make their own set of brackets. What that would be worth each individual would have to decide for themselves. Ask yourself how much you make for working a 40 hour week or how much an hour of your time is worth. then math that over say about 40 hours to hand make a good  set of brackets (providing you don't make mistakes and have to start over several times)plus the cost of the materials. Thats a good way to decide what a good set of brackets are worth to you.

    Your BZ brackets are worth allot more then you may have thought.
    M1D
    kookykrispy
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    Post by kookykrispy Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:07 pm

    Thanks Don! I think I'm going to mount my brackets just like you did Don… using the stop bolt to mount the bracket with a spacer between the bracket and the spindle. That seems very simple and easy. I want to keep it as simple as possible on this disc brake swap.

    It doesn't say anything about drilling and tapping the steering arm in the instructions I have. I don't mind tapping new threads, thats easy, but I'm confused about exactly what holes are supposed to be drilled and tapped?

    Don, the very bottom paragraph of the instructions you posted do not make sense to me? I guess I'm not going to worry about it, since it doesn't even mention anything about drilling or tapping, or anything at all about the steering arm in the instructions I have.


    m1dadio
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    Post by m1dadio Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:37 pm

    KK, My apology for pulling your thread off topic.

    M1D

    donivan65
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    Post by donivan65 Mon Feb 10, 2014 11:27 pm

    Those are the original instructions back from the 1990's,,,,,,like I said, it looked like the kit was really for something else and it was the closest thing that would  fit our vans,,,,,,,put another nut instead of a spacer under  that stop bolt,,,,,,I would say they had problems with the rotor hitting the bottom bolts so they wanted you to tap the spindle and  put the bolts in from the backside and cut them off flush so the rotor don't rub on them,,,,,,I put the original bolts back in,,,,,,there was another big spacer that they wanted put in to support the inner bearings,,,,,so this kit was for something else,,,,,,but it was the only game in town back in the last century,,,,,,and you know,,,,,,people were still using the single line master cylinder with the kit,,,,,,it was pretty primitive times,,,,,,,you have to move the shocks to the front and that upper shock mount aint happy about that,,,,,and 2nd gens aint happy about that shock moving to where  the sway bar fits,,,,,,,but M1D designed his brackets to solve all these inconveniences,,,,,,
    kookykrispy
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    Post by kookykrispy Tue Feb 11, 2014 8:31 am

    Thanks Don! BTW, it was 1993 when I bought my first van. A '66 sport van. Smile


    I'm old school and I like the big/little look on my vans with 14" rims up front, and 15's out back.

    I don't mind having to relocate the shock forward if it means 14" mags will clear the front brakes.


    donivan65
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    Post by donivan65 Tue Feb 11, 2014 10:22 am

    ,,,,,,,you will have to move the shocks,,,,,,or the calipers will hit them,,,,,,,,,with these types of brackets.......
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    Post by hermeytheelf Mon Feb 24, 2014 8:16 pm

    So M1D do you have brackets for sale or has all of the stock been depleted?
    m1dadio
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    Post by m1dadio Tue Feb 25, 2014 4:27 am

    Yes I do have brackets available. I have a few sets of M1D80TA brackets and one set of M1D2KV. If you are interested in a set email me at m1dadio@shaw.ca

    M1D
    vanner68
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    Post by vanner68 Tue Feb 25, 2014 5:26 am

    IMO, the price of the M1D brackets is worth it because he stands behind his product, and the instruction sheet you get is the MOST complete I have ever seen for anything.

    Can't wait for warmer weather so I can start the install on my 65!
    kookykrispy
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    Post by kookykrispy Tue Feb 25, 2014 7:03 am

    The problem with M1D's brakes is they will not clear 14" wheels.  I am running the M1D80TA setup on my '65 hella sunshine van, and I had to do considerable grinding on the calipers to even fit 15's up front. However, this thread was not intended to be about M1D brakes, so I'm not sure why it got hijacked? I'd like to request we keep it on topic.

    My goal here is find a disc brake setup that actually works with 14" front wheels.  I'm going to try mocking up the BZ brackets I have here and see if they will clear the 14's. There are a ton of cool vintage 14" mags out there and our vans look great with 14's up front. I'm a fan of running 14's in the front and 15's in the rear, for the classic 'big/little' look. To me, nothing looks better on our vans.
    m1dadio
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    Post by m1dadio Tue Feb 25, 2014 11:48 pm

    I'm not intending to "Hijack" this thread  but I will answer anybody who asks me a  question.
    Statements about the M1D brackets and 14" wheels are not correct which compels me to provide accurate information.

    The M1D10KN brackets will fit any 14" wheel that the BZ brackets fit as they use the same rotor and similar caliper, I do not have any of those brackets available for sale, several other people do have unused sets.

    The M1D80TA brackets fit many 14" wheels  and just about every 15" wheel with tons of clearance. Many vanners have installed 14" wheels onto their M1D80TA disc set up.

    Not every wheel, 14 or 15 is going to fit any given disc brake set up, it is mostly the older (pre mid 70's) wheels and especially any "drum brake wheel" that are going to encounter problems with fitment. Most all wheels made after 1974 where designed to fit disc brakes and the newer the wheels are, the better that fit gets.
    If you had trouble fitting a 15" wheel onto  a M1D80TA disc set up it must be a drum brake wheel.
    I now  have the 1" larger 12" rotor M1D2KV set up  in my 15" wheels.

    The following photo is the M1D80TA set up in a 15" wheel with no grinding needed, a solid 5/8" clearance.


    Question for Donivan!  Front Disc Brakes Dscn0415


    The following photo is the larger 12" rotor set up stuffed into the same 15" wheel and yes I had to sand the caliper tops to create 1/8" clearance.

    Question for Donivan!  Front Disc Brakes Img04510

    there is more on the wheel fit question at this link
    https://vintage-vans.forumotion.com/t38590p15-1968-g10-chevy-van-front-wheel-bearings-question
    Thank you
    M1D
    vanner68
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    Post by vanner68 Wed Feb 26, 2014 7:57 am

    I'm hoping the 14" slots I picked up will clear the M1D80TA brackets I got, but I won't cry if they don't, I'll just pass the deal I got on the wheels along to someone else....

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