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RodStRace

itruns

jkr

slowflapper

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Votage Regulator Problem?

slowflapper: Number of posts : 956
Location : GA
Age : 54
Registration date : 2010-07-29

Post n°1

Votage Regulator Problem?

Post by slowflapper Mon Oct 25, 2010 9:59 am

Hi,
My '65 has started randomly blowing the alternator fuse in the fuse block, there's one called "gen/alt" that has a 25 amp fuse in it. It started 3 weeks ago or so and I suspected the electric fan was causing it but it isnt. It blew the fuse pulling out of the driveway yesterday and I stopped right away and changed it. It was working fine until I started to pull out again and it blew again. I changed it out with a 30a and it held until I got done with my stuff and got it home.

Here's the symptoms:
1) The gauge works, if it stops moving I know the fuse is blown.
2) The gauge is reading very high at idle, bouncing between 3/4 and pegged-max on the "charging" side.
3) Just off idle the gauge pegs out on max charging and stays there, this eventually results in blowing the fuse.

I'm not familiar with the amp gauges like this, does this mean the system is "drawing" max amperage or that it's "producing" max amperage?

It starts fine and runs fine but it appears to be producing too much power, I assume because the voltage regulator has gone bad. It was warm to the touch but not hot, I need to pull the cover and see if the "points" are actually working.

My experience with Chevy's is that bad regulators typically resulted no charging at all, not over charging, is over charging common in the early dodges?

Any other tests to do?

If it needs replacing do I get an OEM one or the electronic/solid state one off ebay?

I don't want to drive it like this for the obvious fire hazard related reasons.

Idea's are appreciated!

thanks Smile

Smile

Guest: Guest

Post n°2

Re: Votage Regulator Problem?

Post by Guest Mon Oct 25, 2010 10:06 am

do you have any way to measure the voltage while its running? i have seen some alts/regs go bad and over charge causing tails lights to blow out etc... you may want to check to see exactly what the system is putting out... sound like your on the right path though.

slowflapper: Number of posts : 956
Location : GA
Age : 54
Registration date : 2010-07-29

Post n°3

Re: Votage Regulator Problem?

Post by slowflapper Mon Oct 25, 2010 10:20 am

destro360 wrote:do you have any way to measure the voltage while its running? i have seen some alts/regs go bad and over charge causing tails lights to blow out etc... you may want to check to see exactly what the system is putting out... sound like your on the right path though.

Yep, I'll stick a multimeter on it next chance I have, the alternator is definitely putting out, it just looks like it's putting out all the time instead of "as needed". The gauge has historically tended to swing around a good bit and especially show high when it's first started up. It always tended to settle down around the middle of the gauge when driving down the road though, I assumed because the battery was fully charged by then.

jkr: Number of posts : 1148
Location : prince edward island canada
Age : 66
Registration date : 2008-05-29

Post n°4

Re: Votage Regulator Problem?

Post by jkr Mon Oct 25, 2010 6:24 pm

the regulator is no doubt the problem. its located just under the dash in front of the steering column. those old mechanical monsters burnt more vehicles to the ground than anything. the spring on the contacts has been overheated and wont "regulate" like it should. i see a big ass a-100 barbeque in your future if not repaired soon.

itruns: Number of posts : 1605
Location : Chicago, IL
Registration date : 2008-07-03

Post n°5

Re: Votage Regulator Problem?

Post by itruns Mon Oct 25, 2010 7:16 pm

Electronic regulator from any '70s Mopar is what you need. Rockauto.com has 'em cheap or get one from a junk yard. You'll also need the pigtail connector. You may also need an alternator with 2 field terminals. Run a wire (engine compartment grade so it can stand up to the heat) from the 12 volt side of the ceramic ballast resistor to one of the field terminals. Replace the old POS mechanical VR under the dash with the new electronic VR. Make sure the 2 wires are going to the correct source and that new VR has a good ground.

The ampmeter was showing that the alternator was working it's A$$ off for some reason.

Your electronics and battery will thank you. Your lights will have a steady glow as well.

RodStRace: Number of posts : 3046
Location : Chino Valley
Registration date : 2010-01-21

Post n°6

Re: Votage Regulator Problem?

Post by RodStRace Tue Oct 26, 2010 6:23 am

While you are at it wiring in the new style regulator, clean all the grounds.
There is the main negative battery cable and 2 btound straps that run from the engine to the bolts holding the electrical components on the back of the doghouse. Also clean the amp meter connections, ALL the charging system power travels through these.

slowflapper: Number of posts : 956
Location : GA
Age : 54
Registration date : 2010-07-29

Post n°7

Re: Votage Regulator Problem?

Post by slowflapper Tue Oct 26, 2010 7:39 am

Thanks dudes, I'm looking at getting the parts today, I'll let you know how it goes.

donivan65: Governor; Number of posts : 12220
Location : San Diego, California
Registration date : 2008-05-12

Post n°8

Re: Votage Regulator Problem?

Post by donivan65 Tue Oct 26, 2010 8:55 am

The Alternator probably is getting full fielded from the regulator,,,,,and charging full blast all the time,,,,unplug the IGN side of the regulator as a test to see if the fuse stops blowing. But thats the worlds worst regulator,,,,,and look what Napa wants for it,,,,,you are WAY better off converting over to like a 1972 and later Electronic type Voltage Regulator and its Alternator,,,,,,,,

Votage Regulator Problem? Dodge_20

itruns: Number of posts : 1605
Location : Chicago, IL
Registration date : 2008-07-03

Post n°9

Re: Votage Regulator Problem?

Post by itruns Tue Oct 26, 2010 9:52 am

I don't know what's up with NAPA, but Rockauto.com has them for a lot less (not that you want the POS anyways). Notice how many are on closeout.

Votage Regulator Problem? Pictur10

Votage Regulator Problem? Pictur11

Votage Regulator Problem? Pictur12

What's up with those Bad Boy electronic VRs?

Guest: Guest

Post n°10

Re: Votage Regulator Problem?

Post by Guest Tue Oct 26, 2010 10:09 am

i would deffinately diagnose what the exact problem is and understand it well before you decide to repair/upgrade. all the above is great advise and correct but just for your own personal knowledge and understanding exactly what you are upgrading and repairing. good luck!

slowflapper: Number of posts : 956
Location : GA
Age : 54
Registration date : 2010-07-29

Post n°11

Re: Votage Regulator Problem?

Post by slowflapper Tue Oct 26, 2010 10:41 am

I'll check all the grounds and run a dc volt meter across it the next chance I have but I wanted to put this out there for the guys that might need a voltage regulator.

There is a solid state replacement for the old mechanical contacts type voltage regulator. It plugs into the same wiring, it's just solid state and is supposed to help with the gauge flutter and pulsing lights etc.

It's made/distributed by a company in Alabama called "Regitar", the part number is "C524", you can see it here.

You probably wont find these at your local parts house, Advance, O'Reilly, and AutoZone didn't have them close to me. They don't sell to the public but they gave me the number of a dealer that carries the part.

"J&N"
Contact number: 1-800-366-7100

J&N carries a lot of old electrical components from what they told me, starters, alternators etc.

The mechanical VR locally was $30-40, I got the solid state one for $8 + $10 or so for shipping/handling. It should be here by the weekend and I'll let you guys know how it works out.

donivan65: Governor; Number of posts : 12220
Location : San Diego, California
Registration date : 2008-05-12

Post n°12

Re: Votage Regulator Problem?

Post by donivan65 Tue Oct 26, 2010 10:45 am

Even on good days, that mechanical regulator was not very good,,,,,It has 2 wires,,,,,1 goes to the field terminal of the alternator,,,,,,and this is what we call a B circuit alternator,,,,,,the more voltage you send down the wire, the more it charges,,,,,,the other wire is the sensing wire,,,,,it senses system voltage and then the regulator looks at that and sends a signal to the alternator to keep charging until it sees 14 volts and shuts the alternator off. But I don't like that sensing set up,,,,,you got the battery a mile away and the regulator is measuring the voltage that comes out of the ignition switch, which usually is lower because of all the resistance in the circuit,,,,so its lower,,,,regulator sees lower,,,so it tells alternator charge more,,,,battery gets overcharged,,,,,regulator never shuts off,,,,burns out,,,,,points weld,,,,which kicks the alternator into full output. And that Ammeter ain't no bargain,,,,,you can be charging 10 volts or 20 volts,,,,it shows everything is fine,,,,,and all the charging has to run through it,,,,its a weak point,,,,,,a voltmeter is the way to go,,,,,,you know EXACTLY what the voltage is,,,,,,an Ammeter don't care,,,,,you can cooking your battery and an Ammeter thinks everything is fine,,,,,I think the BIG SALE on those regulators is because they are tired of people returning them,,,,,,and those mechanical voltage regulators are probably just set up for 30 to 40 amp alternators,,,,,we need MORE POWER ,,,,,,,

itruns: Number of posts : 1605
Location : Chicago, IL
Registration date : 2008-07-03

Post n°13

Re: Votage Regulator Problem?

Post by itruns Tue Oct 26, 2010 11:05 am

Don, do you know why Chryslers feed the alternator from the a 12 Volt source then regulates it thru the ground? I once had a mopar alternator on a '76 that had a bad winding that was grounding out and the thing cooked the battery and stereo.

donivan65: Governor; Number of posts : 12220
Location : San Diego, California
Registration date : 2008-05-12

Post n°14

Re: Votage Regulator Problem?

Post by donivan65 Tue Oct 26, 2010 12:09 pm

Well that electronic voltage regulator uses an A circuit field which is a ground circuit. And that means 1 field wire comes from the ignition switch and is always on. And this alternator has an insulated field circuit,,,,which means the only ground is SUPPOSED to be in the regulator. So,,,,,like IF someone forgets to put the fiber washer back on the brush screw or if the wire or rotor shorts out,,,,,,bad things happen like fusible links burn out or wires burn up,,,,,,,,,,,,(have I told you lately about the bestest Alternator set up,,,,the GM 3 or 1 wire ?) Back in the 70's that system was Dodges idea of progress,,,,,,,they have learned better ways since then,,,,,but a person can still get into trouble with either type of Dodge alternators ,,,,,the parts interchange, but if you put the wrong ones in it, then you got problems,,,,a 1 field wire and a 2 field wire alternator are 2 different systems,,,,,the wiring and system polarity are opposite,,,,,,all I am saying is pay attention to what you got,,,,,understand it,,,,,so you know its right because lots of weird stuff happens over the years from people TRYING to keep the old vans on the road.

Votage Regulator Problem? Repair92

Votage Regulator Problem? Dodge_21

donivan65: Governor; Number of posts : 12220
Location : San Diego, California
Registration date : 2008-05-12

Post n°15

Re: Votage Regulator Problem?

Post by donivan65 Tue Oct 26, 2010 2:24 pm

,,,,,,,,,and you ought to PROTECT YOURSELF AT ALL TIMES,,,,,the best way is to install these,,,,,ugh,,,,Ford type fusible links on the end of your Positive battery cable to protect the circuits connected to it,,,,,they kind of have solder in them that melts when excessive current passes through them,,,,which is like your batterys 500 amps of cold cranking power,,,,,just looking for a fight,,,,the wire in the link burns through and current stops flowing saving your vehicle from damage and fire.

Votage Regulator Problem? Fisibl10

RodStRace: Number of posts : 3046
Location : Chino Valley
Registration date : 2010-01-21

Post n°16

Re: Votage Regulator Problem?

Post by RodStRace Tue Oct 26, 2010 2:34 pm

If you are a Mopar-centric guy and the thought of the reliable but ugly GM alt is sending shivers up your spine, you can also upgrade to a nippondenso alt as used on later Mopars.

http://www.allpar.com/history/mopar/electrical.html

Note that although our vans do not have the bulkhead connector as shown in the article, it does have a long wire run from the alt in the doghouse up to the ALT gauge in the dash and back to the battery. Changing to a voltmetrer is a smart upgrade.

http://www.madelectrical.com/electricaltech/amp-gauges.shtml

donivan65: Governor; Number of posts : 12220
Location : San Diego, California
Registration date : 2008-05-12

Post n°17

Re: Votage Regulator Problem?

Post by donivan65 Tue Oct 26, 2010 4:03 pm

Let me put my favorite brand on the list,,,,,,,go to the Pick a Part 1/2 price sale,,,,,,,,buy a Mid 70's Dodge Alternator that uses an electronic voltage regulator for $7.95,,,,,,pay the $3 core charge,,,,,,,take the regulator and connector as part of the $2 entrance fee and have a genuine Mopar System,,,,,,,

slowflapper: Number of posts : 956
Location : GA
Age : 54
Registration date : 2010-07-29

Post n°18

Re: Votage Regulator Problem?

Post by slowflapper Sat Oct 30, 2010 1:47 pm

Ok, the new solid state VR came in yesterday, I put it in this morning and it fixed my problem right up. I opened up the mechanical VR and the contacts were stuck together, the new one stopped the amp gauge needle swing and it stopped the pulsing headlights. It idles about an 1/8th above the center mark on the gauge now.

I took some picts, when I get them uploaded I'll link them to this thread.

I cant brag these VR's up enough, I got two of them "just in case", the two together (shipped) cost as much as a single mechanical VR from the local parts store.

dix

dix: Moderator 1st Class; Number of posts : 8729
Location : pittsburgh pa
Age : 66
Registration date : 2008-05-29

Post n°19

Re: Votage Regulator Problem?

Post by dix Mon Nov 15, 2010 2:34 pm

did you put in a fusable link in??? if not you should..

white-lightning

white-lightning: Number of posts : 237
Location : Salem, Va
Registration date : 2011-02-24

Post n°20

Re: Votage Regulator Problem?

Post by white-lightning Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:05 pm

So the fusible link should be placed on the output cable of the alternator correct? And will any alternator from a 1970+ 318 work with the mounting on a 1965-67 273?

RodStRace: Number of posts : 3046
Location : Chino Valley
Registration date : 2010-01-21

Post n°21

Re: Votage Regulator Problem?

Post by RodStRace Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:28 pm

white-lightning wrote:So the fusible link should be placed on the output cable of the alternator correct?

yes

white-lightning wrote: And will any alternator from a 1970+ 318 work with the mounting on a 1965-67 273?

1970 and up use the electronic VR, this must match! Various different models will have different pulleys, and there is the later squareback alt that is different too.
http://www.hemmings.com/hmn/stories/2008/12/01/hmn_feature26.html
http://www.allpar.com/history/mopar/electrical.html
http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/techarticles/engine/mopp_0112_electronic_voltage_regulator_and_alternator/index.html

Guest: Guest

Post n°22

Re: Votage Regulator Problem?

Post by Guest Thu Mar 10, 2011 6:11 am

I ran into an electrical problem last week and it sounds alot like what you guys are talking about. I had my wire that goes from the coil to the distributor completely melt down, and the coil cracked open. I havn't found the exact problem yet. I was thinking that it could be the voltage regulator. I also have alot of wires that need replaceing. It would be nice to make some inprovements while I'm at it. Fuseable links is a must do. Thanks Donivan.

slowflapper: Number of posts : 956
Location : GA
Age : 54
Registration date : 2010-07-29

Post n°23

Re: Votage Regulator Problem?

Post by slowflapper Thu Mar 10, 2011 9:10 am

killakans wrote:I ran into an electrical problem last week and it sounds alot like what you guys are talking about. I had my wire that goes from the coil to the distributor completely melt down, and the coil cracked open. I havn't found the exact problem yet. I was thinking that it could be the voltage regulator. I also have alot of wires that need replaceing. It would be nice to make some inprovements while I'm at it. Fuseable links is a must do. Thanks Donivan.

Take the top off the voltage regulator you have, there's a set of points in there, if they are melted together that's probably what caused your melt down. Mine looked new inside other than the fact that they were welded together Smile

Smile

donivan65: Governor; Number of posts : 12220
Location : San Diego, California
Registration date : 2008-05-12

Post n°24

Re: Votage Regulator Problem?

Post by donivan65 Thu Mar 10, 2011 8:53 pm

white-lightning wrote:So the fusible link should be placed on the output cable of the alternator correct? And will any alternator from a 1970+ 318 work with the mounting on a 1965-67 273?

Newer vehicles have many fusible links to protect each circuit,,,,,,,I would think on a Dodge, you need to install the fusible link at the starter relay,,,,,that is the source of voltage,,,,,,,if you only install one at the alternator all you protect is the diodes, (thats the last thing in the circuit),,,, the ammeter, fuse box, ignition switch, voltage regulator and headlight wiring are still at risk and will cause you misery when, not if, something goes wrong with your wiring or equipment,,,,,,,

donivan65: Governor; Number of posts : 12220
Location : San Diego, California
Registration date : 2008-05-12

Post n°25

Re: Votage Regulator Problem?

Post by donivan65 Thu Mar 10, 2011 9:12 pm

killakans wrote:I ran into an electrical problem last week and it sounds alot like what you guys are talking about. I had my wire that goes from the coil to the distributor completely melt down, and the coil cracked open. I havn't found the exact problem yet. I was thinking that it could be the voltage regulator. I also have alot of wires that need replaceing. It would be nice to make some inprovements while I'm at it. Fuseable links is a must do. Thanks Donivan.

The coil probably died from high voltage and overheated,,,,,(it took the primary wire to the distributor with it),,,,,,,coils and points like 6 volts,,,,,12 volts will do them in,,,,,and thats the job of the ballast resistor, so that would be my #1 suspect. And you can see,,,,,an Ammeter is useless,,,,,the voltage regulator could be telling the alternator to charge 20 volts,,,,,Ammeter don't care,,,,,so a VOLTMETER is the way to go,,,,,as long as that needle is at 14 volts, life is good,,,,

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Re: Votage Regulator Problem?

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