Difference between motor mounts automatic/manual transmission?

Hi folks,
I need to know if there is a difference in height between the front motor mounts of automatic and manual transmission.
My van had an autotranny put in by the pre owner. But the work wasn't done very well, it wasn' the original Econoline automatic and I wanted to go back to the original manual 3.03 anyway, so I changed it. Now I'm not sure if the pre owner changed the front motor mounts, too, because I got a strange angel in my driveline. I'm not sure, but shouldn't be the angel of the drive shaft the same at the front and rear side but not 0 degree?
Thanks

I just switched my 4 speed manual to a C4 and I had no problems installing it with the existing motor mounts. Had to loosen them up the install the tranny, but it went right in.
So if you are going to switch the tranny, you are going to need a new steering column. I need an auto trans shifting column and you need a manual. What a great trade.. Let me know if you are interested. I'm ready to roll

It depends on the the year of the van. If it's a 65-67 the mounts will be the same, at least with the small six. If it's a 64, the mounts are the same, but the 'engine hangers' are different. I seem to remember you saying you had a 240 van, it would be 65-67. I'm not sure about the big six mounts, but I'd bet they are the same for auto or manual transmissions.

The angle of the trans output and the pinion angle of the rear should be equal but opposite. An easy way to check is to make an adjustable angle finder with 2 pieces of wood or plywood and a clamp. 1 pc on the floor the other against the pinion, then tighten the clamp, then move it over to the trans output. Magnetic angle finders are cheap to.

Vantastic, sorry, the preowner hasn't done the job right and did NOT changed the steering column. He used the manual one and just one shifting rod. So good for me I, but I got no column to trade with you. Hope you'll find one, try the parts wanted section.

Seth G wrote:It depends on the the year of the van. If it's a 65-67 the mounts will be the same, at least with the small six. If it's a 64, the mounts are the same, but the 'engine hangers' are different. I seem to remember you saying you had a 240 van, it would be 65-67. I'm not sure about the big six mounts, but I'd bet they are the same for auto or manual transmissions.

The angle of the trans output and the pinion angle of the rear should be equal but opposite. An easy way to check is to make an adjustable angle finder with 2 pieces of wood or plywood and a clamp. 1 pc on the floor the other against the pinion, then tighten the clamp, then move it over to the trans output. Magnetic angle finders are cheap to.

Seth, yes, it's a '65 with a 300. I gonna take some measures on friday, but I have no idea why the angles are not right. Rear axle, leaf springs, motor mounts, transmission mount all seems to be original?
I thought about put some wedges under the leaf springs to get the right angle for the pinion.

I hope this helps.

Vancy65 wrote:

Seth G wrote:It depends on the the year of the van. If it's a 65-67 the mounts will be the same, at least with the small six. If it's a 64, the mounts are the same, but the 'engine hangers' are different. I seem to remember you saying you had a 240 van, it would be 65-67. I'm not sure about the big six mounts, but I'd bet they are the same for auto or manual transmissions.

The angle of the trans output and the pinion angle of the rear should be equal but opposite. An easy way to check is to make an adjustable angle finder with 2 pieces of wood or plywood and a clamp. 1 pc on the floor the other against the pinion, then tighten the clamp, then move it over to the trans output. Magnetic angle finders are cheap to.

Seth, yes, it's a '65 with a 300. I gonna take some measures on friday, but I have no idea why the angles are not right. Rear axle, leaf springs, motor mounts, transmission mount all seems to be original?
I thought about put some wedges under the leaf springs to get the right angle for the pinion.

I had to use shims on mine to get the pinion angle right, but I have a non oem configuration. I still didn't see how it could ever have been correct and wondered if there were oem wedge shims that were missing. The 2.25" wide shims are somewhat hard to find, but they are out there. I needed 2 degree shims on mine.

All earlies (61 to 64) used the sheet metal engine hangers and all lates (65 to 67) used a cross member. In the earlies the only automatic was in a 1964 ONLY and all 1964's having two mounting holes in the overhead frame.
  The 1964 AUTOMATIC using the UPPER mounting hole and the manual using the lower mounting hole ALSO VERY IMPORTANT in that the 1964 AUTOMATIC using SPECIAL ONE YEAR ONLY sheet metal engine hangers that dropped the FRONT engine height THE SAME DISTANCE AS THE DIFFERENCE in the two transmission mounting hole distance. Ford did this to keep the fuel level in the carburetor level. ALL SIX CYLINDER INTAKES with a built in angle for this the same as a V8.  The point here is that because of no hump in the early doghouse they had to lower the motor the same front and back. In order to NOT have the sheet metal engine hangers hit the springs on full compression they angled the ends of these special engine hangers DOWNWARDS and used changed the engine mount over to the single stud type used in the lates. 
 ALL lates using a cross member as well as the hump in the back of the doghouse so that the engine would no longer sit down low like the early 1964 automatic had to do. The late cross member itself is identical regardless of big six or small six as the change was made in the tower itself and not the actual cross member itself. Also, they now used a set of three transmission mounting holes in the over head frame member. One set used for an automatic and one set used for a manual transmission. 
  Drive line angles can be affected by the spring height and shackle height with the angle needing to also compensate for spring compression more so than the other direction. Regards to the motor mount itself there is no difference on a big six regardless of auto or manual or 240 or 300 as they are all the same. Will post an old site for drive line angles as I dont want to loose this and have to re post just in case. The angled shims are the same ones used to adjust the front axle caster. Also once again,, and excellent source for information is "HOW TO MAKE YOUR CAR HANDLE" by Fred Puhn,,,, HPBOOKS-46,,,, from pressure multiplication to bump steer the guy is on the money..  Fantastic tech info.....
 
 Vic,,

Sorry,,  will try better perhaps late tonight as I couldnt find the other tech info I saved from years ago,, however this is very well explained also,,
vic

Driveline Angles & Phasing Problems The u-joint operating angle is the angle formed by two yokes connected by a cross and bearing kit. There are two kinds of u-joint angles. The simple one plane angle found in most installations has all driveline slope confined to one plane, usually the vertical plane. The other type of driveline angle is compound angle in two planes. This is found in driveline designs where offset exists in both the vertical and horizontal planes.       One Plane Angle Driveshaft's, Side & Top View Two Plane Angle Driveshaft, Side & Top View High angles combined with high RPM is the worst combination, resulting in reduced u-joint life. Too large and unequal u-joint angles can cause vibrations and contribute to u-joint, transmission and differential problems. The improper u-joint angles must be corrected. Ideally, the operating angles on each end of the driveshaft should be equal to or within 1 degree of each other, have a 3 degree maximum operating angle and have at least 1/2 of a degree continuous operating angle. RPM is the main factor though in determining maximum allowable operating angles. As a guide to maximum normal operating angles, refer to the following chart:  DRIVESHAFT RPM MAX. NORMAL OPERATING ANGLE 5000 3.25º 4500 3.67º 4000 4.25º 3500 5.00º 3000 5.83º 2500 7.00º 2000 8.67º 1500 11.5º When the transmission output shaft centerline and axle input shaft centerline are parallel, the u-joint operating angle permissible is length of driveshaft divided by five. Example: A short coupled driveshaft with a 15" length would be limited to 3 degrees maximum operating angle. A 30" shaft would be limited to 6 degrees. When the transmission output shaft centerline and axle input shaft centerline intersect midway of the driveshaft, the joint angles are equal. However, due to the change to unequal joint angles during up and down axle movement, this is a more undesirable condition than parallel centerlines. In this case, the maximum u-joint operating angle is determined by dividing length of driveshaft by ten. Example: A 30" driveshaft with intersecting angles would have a 3 degree permissible operating angle. CHECKING DRIVESHAFT ANGLES IN THE VERTICAL OR HORIZONTAL PLANE WARNING: Rotating shafts can be dangerous. You can snag clothes, skin, hair, hands, etc. This can cause serious injury or death. Do not work on a shaft (with or without a guard) when the engine is running Use the following procedure to check driveshaft angles for proper u-joint operating angles. 1. Inflate all tires to the pressure at which they are normally operated. Park the vehicle on a surface which is as level as possible both from front to rear and from side to side. Do not attempt to level the vehicle by jacking up the front or rear axles. Shift the transmission into neutral and block the front tires. Jack up a rear wheel. 2. Rotate the wheel by hand until the output yoke on the transmission is vertical, and lower the jack. This simplifies measurement later. Check driveshaft angles in the same loaded or unloaded condition as when the vibrations or noise occurred. Always try to check driveline angles in both loaded and unloaded conditions. 3. To determine driveshaft angles, a spirit level protractor or Spicer Anglemaster ® II Electronic Driveline Inclinometer is required. On a protractor, when angles are read from 0 degree mark (horizontally - on the driveshaft) record and use the angle shown. When angles are read from either of the 90 degree marks (vertically - on the flange) do not record the angle shown on the protractor since the 90 degree marks must be understood to be the same as 0 degrees on the horizontal plane. Thus, if a vertical reading is 85 degrees, the angle being measured is 5 degrees (90 - 85 = 5 degrees). To use the Spicer Anglemaster ® II Electronic Driveline Inclinometer, simply place the sensor on the component to be measured. A display module will show what the angle is and in which direction it slopes. We offer Spicer Anglemaster ® II Electronic Driveline Inclinometer for $300.00. If using a protractor, all angles should be read within 0.25 degree and they should be measured with the protractor held plumb on a clean flat surface. The Spicer Anglemaster ® II Electronic Driveline Inclinometer is automatically accurate to within 1/10 of 1 degree. Always measure the slope of the drivetrain going from front to rear. A component slopes downward if it is lower at the rear than the front. A component slopes upward when it is higher at the rear than it is in front. 4. Check and record the angle on the main transmission. This reading can be taken on the end yoke lug, with the bearing assembly removed or on a flat surface of the main transmission parallel or perpendicular to the output yoke lug plane. Record your readings on a sketch. 5. Now check the drive shaft angle between the transmission and axle or forward axle. On short tube length Driveshaft's, check the angle of the driveshaft on either the tube or slip yoke lug with the bearing assembly removed. On long tube length Driveshaft's, measure the angle on the tube at least 3" away from the circle welds or at least 1" away from any balance weights. Be sure to remove any rust, scale or sound deadening compounds from the tube to obtain an accurate measurement.   6. Check the forward axle input yoke angle by removing a bearing assembly and measuring the angle on the yoke lugs or on a flat surface of the angle housing parallel or perpendicular to the input yoke lug plane. 7. If applicable, measure the output yoke angle of the forward axle, the angle of the tandem driveshaft between the forward axle and the rear axle, and the rear axle input yoke angle. With all of the angles recorded, complete a drawing as shown below. There are no u-joint operating angles in your drawing at this time, jut the slope of the components and their direction. To determine u-joint operating angles, simply find the difference in the slopes of the components. When the slopes are in the Same direction on two connected components, Subtract the smaller number from the larger to find the u-joint operating angle. When the slopes are in the Opposite direction on two connected components, Add the measurements to find the u-joint operating angle. Now compare the u-joint operating angles on your drawing to the rules for ideal operating angles mentioned above. click image to enlarge. CORRECTING U-JOINT OPERATING ANGLES The recommended method for correcting severe u-joint operating angles depends on the vehicle suspension or driveline design. On vehicles with leaf springs suspension, thin wedges called axle shims can be installed under the leaf springs of single axle vehicles to tilt the axle and correct u-joint operating angles. Wedges are available in a range of sizes to change pinion angles. On vehicles with tandem axles, the torque rods can be shimmed. Torque rod shims rotate the axle pinion to change the u-joint operating angle. A longer or shorter torque rod may be available from the manufacture if shimming is not practical. Some torque rods are adjustable. As a general rule, the addition or removal of a 1/4" shim from the rear torque arm will change the axle angle approximately 3/4 of a degree. A 3/4 of a degree change in the pinion angle will change the u-joint operating angle about 1/4 of a degree. Always take the time to call the vehicle manufacturer if there are unusual u-joint operating angle problems. WHAT CAUSES U-JOINT OPERATING ANGLES TO CHANGE Suspension changes caused by: worn bushings in the spring hangers, worn bushings in the torque rods incorrect airbag height Revisions in components of the driveline Stretching or shortening the chassis Adding an auxiliary transmission or transfer case in the main driveline Worn engine mounts Raising or lowering of the vehicle DRIVESHAFT BRAKE When a driveshaft brake is used, care must be taken to see that the brake drum is properly piloted, runs true and is in balance. Other Driveline related issues: Driveline Trobleshooting Driveline Field Problems Driveline replacements Driveline parts  We offer a complete line of accessories for your vehicle, check out the following links: Ring & Pinion Sets Auburn Limited Slip Positraction Clutch Kits In addition to differential repair parts we offer free technical support to assist you in solving your automotive problems as well as a large list of the following products to improve your vehicles performance, economy, safety and appearance:     In addition to parts offered here we can also provide manual transmissions  and bearing overhaulkits we also provide an impressive list of automotive after marketproducts for car, pickup truck, SUV and 4wd repair parts and accessories the list includes automatic transmission overhaul kits, automatic transmission pans, rear end covers, ring and pinion gears, OE clutch replacements and heavy duty performance clutches, diesel gauge kits and diesel exhaustbrakes, remanufactured manual and automatic transmissions and both transfer case replacements and transfer case overhaul kits and hard parts.  Other products we offer for the RV recreational vehiclemarket include REMCO driveline disconnects, tow bars and baseplates.  Auxiliary overdrive units to improve vehicle-towing performance and save fuel are available.  We have a complete 4wheeling drivetrain product line including complete differential assemblies, limited slip and solid locking positractions.  We offer transmission conversion kits including the NV4500 as well as replacement kits for light duty GM and Jeep transmissions.  To improve your vehicles fuel mileage and performance you may be interested in visiting our Ford, Escape and Powerstroke Diesel products, Dodge Ram, Chevrolet/GMC, Jeep and FJ Cruiser products area.  From time to time we offer specials discounts to our registered Internet customers, click below to register and receive advance notice of new products, special bonus offers and to be eligible for our free random gift drawings, we protect your e-mail address, we don't sell, trade or abuse it. 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