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700r4 VS 200r4. Whats the criteria?

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700r4 VS 200r4. Whats the criteria?

Post by Guest on Sat Feb 13, 2010 6:07 pm

I had a rebuilt turbo 400 in my hand, (purchased from my buddy), and two things happened. He hedged a bit and asked if he could reneg because he wants to keep it for a big block project, and I started worrying about not having an over drive gear, (gas savings at first, but then I realized lower rpm on the highway might allow me to have a conversation with my passenger without yelling).

I have found a guy who has both a 200r4 and a 700r4 rebuilt and I'm researching what is better. Its hard to research from other peoples experience because you can never know what modifications they have done so you never know if its a fair fight, depending on their experience.

I understand the 700r4 has beefier parts and therefore is probably stronger, but the 200r4 has a smoother gear change from 1st to 2nd, (does that really ever seal the deal?).

Based on the following criteria, what would you think makes more sence for me:

Criteria:

- Going into a 66 G10
- I have a chevy 350 v8 - 400hp
- Fabricating a hanger is not a problem
- I don't know what my rear end gearing is yet, (if its easy to change, its a non issue)
- I don't have posi rear end, (but I might get one if its part of the "ideal combination")
- I normally drive fairly aggressively, but this van scares me so i might ease up for survival purposes.

I have to buy it by noon Monday because I'm running out of shop time to my restoration, so I realize I might miss out on alot of good oppinions here but keep it comming as I can't find a string about this and I think this is a worthy topic for future tranny swappers.

Cheers,

Heavy
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BILLS66

Number of posts : 1370
Location : Salem Or.
Age : 57
Registration date : 2008-05-17

Re: 700r4 VS 200r4. Whats the criteria?

Post by BILLS66 on Sat Feb 13, 2010 6:22 pm

Heavy,First question is how often and how much highway driving are you going to do?If it's alot then an overdrive makes sense. Next and I don't know much about transmissions but if you are truly going to pound this thing hard go with as heavy duty as you can. I have a turbo 350 that I had built correctly
and will take some pretty harsh treatment ,but if I had spent the extra money to do an overdrive would in all reality taken many years to make up the cost difference in any fuel savings . Bill

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Re: 700r4 VS 200r4. Whats the criteria?

Post by Guest on Sat Feb 13, 2010 6:53 pm

I am going to drive it as my daily driver and work vehicle, but only during the 7 non ice and salt months up here. So for half the year I'm on the highway half the time.

But that's true.

Gas milliage isn't the closer, and I'm always in favor of more heavy duty regardless of my purposes. But there are alot of people out there who have chosen the 200 over the 700 and I'm trying to understand if I should be one of them.

As for the decision to go with an over drive, I suspect that in our vans, the difference between 2000 rpm and 3000 rpm is like comparing a house party and a Who concert for sound. Doesn't that bother you?
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Digz

Number of posts : 3720
Location : United States Six Lakes MI
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Re: 700r4 VS 200r4. Whats the criteria?

Post by Digz on Sat Feb 13, 2010 8:00 pm

you can gain all that rpm drop with the rear end gearing. Thinking a 3:08 might about put you at 2200 rpm @ 60mph with a TH350 thats with a 28" tall tire. Biggest problem you might have is getting 400hp hooked to the ground in a 3000 Lb vehicle. the gains with an overdrive are a lower gear to start with for power (which you shouldnt need) and in our cases to combat a stiff gear ratio like a 3:73 or 4:11, But the lower gear I think was put in the overdrive trans to combat the 3:00 and lower ratios they were sticking in the rear ends to gain mileage. If I was building an everyday driver I would think about a TH350 for ease of mounting and changing out gears. IMO


Last edited by Digz on Sat Feb 13, 2010 8:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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BILLS66

Number of posts : 1370
Location : Salem Or.
Age : 57
Registration date : 2008-05-17

Re: 700r4 VS 200r4. Whats the criteria?

Post by BILLS66 on Sat Feb 13, 2010 8:02 pm

Heavy,Not at all a small block running at appprox 2500 to 2700 rpm Is mooth and quiet compared to a 6cyl .i am running a 3.36 rear and did for a short time with the 6 cyl and the 6cyl sounded like it was going to explode but the V8 is amazingily smooth and quiet. Bill
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m1dadio
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Re: 700r4 VS 200r4. Whats the criteria?

Post by m1dadio on Sun Feb 14, 2010 9:12 am

One thing to consider is the installalation, The 700R4 is longer so will require a very different mount, back behind the original mount area where the 200 lines up with the original mount area and a mount can be fabricated to hang it from the original holes. That being said I personally believe the trany should be mounted on a base mount as designed. My calculations show that works best with the engine mounts. Another consideration is the drive shaft, I am told your original drive shaft will work with the 200. I had to have a custom 19.5" drive shaft made up to fit with my 700R4 which has presented some drive line angularity issuse being so short and combined with a 1979 10 bolt rear end and higher ride hight. I lowered my engine 1" and still have an angle issue.

This may not look like much angle but it is a 7* angle which is much more then recomended for such a short drive shaft.

http://www.drivetrain.com/parts_catalog/drivetrain/driveline_angles_and_phasing_problems.html

You have to click on these photos to see the whole thing






M1D

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Re: 700r4 VS 200r4. Whats the criteria?

Post by Guest on Sun Feb 14, 2010 8:07 pm

That picture of your drive shaft looks like your tranny is on quite an angle as well which implies that your engine is on that angle. I was a bit scared about the engine angle, but its apparently not such a big deal. I was prepared to drop my engine 2" with the TH400, but I'll hold off on that plan until I bolt up the 200 to see what the new layout is like.

While I'm sure there are many more who should be chiming in on this topic as a general reference for this subject, I unfortunately have run out of time to decide, so from the other searching I have done, I've decided to go with the 200r4. It sounds like a have a pretty good chance of not having to shorten or modify my drive shaft, and there are mods that I can make to the 200r4 that make it strong. I also think that with the power I have in this little van now, I don't need the extreme 1st gear to second spread. I like the idea of a smoother shift myself.

That's my decision, but keep coming on your opinions here. From what I've read, this is a contentious topic that comes up a lot.

Heavy
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donivan65
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Re: 700r4 VS 200r4. Whats the criteria?

Post by donivan65 on Sun Feb 14, 2010 8:14 pm

M1Dadios is probably not a good example of what you will run into, he has a maybe a 1988 Pontiac 4.3L engine and a 1991 trans in his van. So He and his van are one of a kind,,,,,,
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m1dadio
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Re: 700r4 VS 200r4. Whats the criteria?

Post by m1dadio on Mon Feb 15, 2010 5:21 pm

Ya not a 4.3, I have the high torque roller cammed TPI V8. Its going on the dyno tester wednesday for a custom burn prom. Then I hope to be showing you a vidio of the front wheels getting airborn. That is if I can keep the rear wheels on the ground.

But yes thats a v8 700R4 in a first gen. Its the exhaust angling up that gives the alusion of a steep angle. The engine is on the right angle. Intake plenum is level.



M1D
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m1dadio
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Re: 700r4 VS 200r4. Whats the criteria?

Post by m1dadio on Mon Feb 15, 2010 9:07 pm

Engine angle is a bit of deal.

You want the carboretor and oil sumps/pans to be level so all the fluids flow where they are suposed to. Most all engine slop back on an angle, I'm not sure what it is but I do know that generally the carb needs to be level.
M1D

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Re: 700r4 VS 200r4. Whats the criteria?

Post by Guest on Sat Feb 20, 2010 4:42 am

Well, as it turns out, I decided to go with the 700r4 after all. I got to the place where the 200r4 was and he actually had two 700's, one of which was rebuilt with all the extra performance parts, (really beefed up). I was a bit scared of putting stock stuff on the back of the v8 so I got upsold and bought it.

So now that its in, I do see the angle issue. I was confused though about where you take your angle measurement. Is it simply the angle from shaft to undercarriage of the van, or the angle from the perspective of the tranny, or the perspective of the rear end spline? Each one would be drastically different.

As I understand it, since the rear end turns a bit under high torque circumstances, I imagine that you want the drive shaft to be in line with the spline under the most aggressive torque forces, which maybe is the most efficient drive line transmission, or perhaps least vulnerable to failure.

If the logic of that is correct, then I would really need to know how much give the leaf springs have to allow the rear axle to rotate. I guess I would also need to know what kind of torque I would get with the engine in combination with a reasonable average of weight over the tires. Bla bla bla, many variables to calculate.

So instead, I have lowered the engine 1 1/2", I have raised the tranny to within a 1/2" of the underside of the van, and considering the carb is relatively level now, (because of the built in wedge on its mount), I have to assume the engine is happy and the tranny is as happy as its going to get.

I had plans to get a drive shaft guy in to evaluate the line before I finalize my tranny mount design, but now I just think I'm going to go with it. I mean, its as good as its going to get so that's that.

I sure hope it works out. I'll let you know the angle after its done.

cheers,

Heavy
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m1dadio
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Re: 700r4 VS 200r4. Whats the criteria?

Post by m1dadio on Sat Feb 20, 2010 11:49 pm

I just installed wedges in the rear end because it was 2* lower then the trans output. I used to have a driveline vib at cruise that would go away during acceleration. Now the drive line runs smooth at cruise but I can feel a small vib during harder acceleration, that cant be helped, it is because the leaf spring alow the rear end to torque during accel.

You were asking about drive line angles and what works. Use the following site to do yourr homework.

http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://www.mre-books.com/resto/Restomod_14.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.mre-books.com/resto/restomod3.html&usg=__ssLPfclA1T9wnGvuvOTwBg1eJK4=&h=252&w=336&sz=68&hl=en&start=16&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=4BkGIhYPjQN8NM:&tbnh=89&tbnw=119&prev=/images%3Fq%3Ddriveline%2Bangles%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DX%26tbs%3Disch:1

My van is simular to what you are doing but no two are alike. I lowered the engine 1" and have about a 3* slope on the engine as do you if your carb is level. Noe I have the rear end pinion pointing up 3* which works good but my suspention is quite high so the short 19.5" drive shaft is on a steep angle. The recomended working angle of a drive shaft depends on several things, lenght, speed and so on, they recomend about 3* for the average. I think the working angle of my drive shaft is about 7* and should be only about 2.5* based on its lenght but it works fair enough for me.

M1D

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Re: 700r4 VS 200r4. Whats the criteria?

Post by Guest on Sun Feb 21, 2010 9:08 am

I have a 700R4 in Ester, behind the 250 with a traditional style fabbed trans mount. My driveshaft is almost identical to m1dadio's. I have no vibrations to speak of, but havent really put any miles on her since getting her. I've been fixing issues that the POer had caused and stripping it down to guage the amount of work that needs to be done to get her into DD status. It is a slippery slope, I get one thing fix and find 3 other things that need to be done.

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Re: 700r4 VS 200r4. Whats the criteria?

Post by Guest on Wed Apr 07, 2010 8:55 pm

Back on the project. This is my final decision. I don't want a vib so I am fabricating a ladder bar and making the pinion angle parallel to the tranny angle. The difference between the drive shaft angle and pinion angle works out to 4 degrees which is one degree more than is recomended, but I have lowered the engine 1 1/2" which is as far as I want to go so that's as good as I can get.

Comments?
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Digz

Number of posts : 3720
Location : United States Six Lakes MI
Registration date : 2008-05-17

Re: 700r4 VS 200r4. Whats the criteria?

Post by Digz on Wed Apr 07, 2010 9:24 pm

My engine and trans is set up like that, same drop, same trans clearance. I may be a little higher in the back with the springs by a couple inches, and have noticed no vibrations in the drive line and havent ripped anything out doing hole shots yet, I havent checked the true angle yet but Im sure its more than 4 degrees. I was suprised at the bite the 295/15s actually get , but they can break loose sorta easy.

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Guest

Re: 700r4 VS 200r4. Whats the criteria?

Post by Guest on Wed Apr 07, 2010 9:41 pm

Hey Digz,

Are you saying your pinion angle is parallel to your transmission angle? That was my executive decision against all the common sence advice to drop the pinion to compensate for spring wrap. I figure having the tranny and pinion parallel is really only possible with traction bars. When you say you have the same set up, are you saying you have traction bars too?
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Digz

Number of posts : 3720
Location : United States Six Lakes MI
Registration date : 2008-05-17

Re: 700r4 VS 200r4. Whats the criteria?

Post by Digz on Thu Apr 08, 2010 4:22 am

I have the tranny and rear pinion real close to parallel, I did the centering/line up back when I made the trans X member about a year ago, I set that to the "old" springs, the new springs brought the nose of the pinion up a little bit, but it still is below that "line". Traction bars will stop the spring wrap but shouldnt do anything for the set-up angle, thats the spring perches and condition of the springs themselves controling that. The new springs are stiff and right now I dont think "wrap" is an issue. As light as these things are in the back wheel hop with worn out springs might be more likely to show up. I would like to eventually put ladder bars on mine but I think they would be more for show than function. Ive been living under my van for the past two weeks getting the trans issue worked out. I will take a closer look at mine and get a better idea of where it actually ended up.
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Digz

Number of posts : 3720
Location : United States Six Lakes MI
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Re: 700r4 VS 200r4. Whats the criteria?

Post by Digz on Thu Apr 08, 2010 3:56 pm

I put a protractor and a straight edge on the trans and rear pinion today, without taking the drive shaft out I came up with near 7 degrees on both ends, so it is very close to parallel, the gap between the top of the trans and the front portion of the original trans Xmember is 7/8 of an inch. My drive shaft measures 21 1/2 " from outside to outside of the U joint cups, Looking at it , I believe it could be 22" easily. My rear springs were ordered at 1" over arch but think they got a bit more than that, closer to 2".

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Re: 700r4 VS 200r4. Whats the criteria?

Post by Guest on Sat Apr 10, 2010 10:21 pm

Here is a site I looked at that is the simplest ladder bar type solution.

http://www.angelfire.com/my/fan/traction.html

I'm doing two ladder bars that converge to just outside my 700r4 mount brackets on the cross member I made, so they converge to the middle which is supposed to be good triangulation that will also prevent and lateral shift in my axle.

This all seems like over kill, but my buddy is warning me that this V8 of his I'm putting in will really hurt the little van. He thinks I'll be in the 12's. Bit scarry making a brick go that fast.
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Oldsmobubble

Number of posts : 92
Location : St. Pete Beach FL
Registration date : 2011-02-18

Re: 700r4 VS 200r4. Whats the criteria?

Post by Oldsmobubble on Mon Feb 21, 2011 6:49 am

that is clean looking, how is it running?

http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=150&u=13103795
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Twinpilot001

Number of posts : 6186
Location : spokane ,Wa.
Registration date : 2009-09-28

Re: 700r4 VS 200r4. Whats the criteria?

Post by Twinpilot001 on Mon Feb 21, 2011 7:47 am

Has anyone answered the post question?? What is better ; =


700r4 or 200r4??? what is heaver duty, easier to install, less expensive to build??, pros & cons??
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panelmanrd

Number of posts : 764
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Registration date : 2009-10-04

Re: 700r4 VS 200r4. Whats the criteria?

Post by panelmanrd on Tue Feb 22, 2011 7:36 pm

700 stronger with less money, i hear that with the 200 you don`t
need driveshaft mods,{not 100% sure of this, just what ive heard}
mount for either trans will need to be built. and fo course the detent
cable mount and cable attachment will need to be built, pretty much
a walk in the park for a carbed v8, inline 6 will take some thought.
as for the angle of the engine/trans mounting this is determened by
the pinion angle with the rear suspension loaded {rear axle supporting the
weight of the van} the crankshaft/outputshaft needs to be parallel.
this will insure that you won`t have vibration problems. hope this answeres
questions.
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Twinpilot001

Number of posts : 6186
Location : spokane ,Wa.
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Re: 700r4 VS 200r4. Whats the criteria?

Post by Twinpilot001 on Mon Feb 28, 2011 8:15 am

Thanx to all for the discussions. Im going with the 700r -just cause its the H.D. tranny. I have a stroked 350 in now & will rebuild a 700r in spring. rear is 3.73-1 ratio so im needing the OD. drop too. Ive in past had 350's & 400's in various trucks. all with just shift kits installed . Might add -the shift kits really help keep the clutch plates from wearing as much as in an oem application. As im not looking at the differences between the powerglide trans height(now in the 2nd gen van and the 700r-therefore - what im understanding here is - if the same mounting height of the existing trans is kept -the 700r will be well above the rear floor area(hitting the floor)?? Curious about cutting the floor and building an extended rear doghouse area to fit?? seems this way the driveshaft angle would be kept as origional? Im remembering all the inboard boat engine installations in past - always had the motor at an angle mounted- not as in an outdrive situation - the real inboard boats . seems all that was done mostly was float levels were raised slightly with bowl spill over tubes installed a little highre than on a car types. Just excersizing my thoughts from all those experiences of a past life . so the driveshaft angle with the origional mount install would stay the same id think?- just raising up the rear D.H. area to fit over?
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Twinpilot001

Number of posts : 6186
Location : spokane ,Wa.
Registration date : 2009-09-28

Re: 700r4 VS 200r4. Whats the criteria?

Post by Twinpilot001 on Mon Feb 28, 2011 6:51 pm

as for vibration when driving- look at the rear trans bushing that the yolk slips into. a few thousants & ull get a vibe!!
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panelmanrd

Number of posts : 764
Location : kcmo
Age : 56
Registration date : 2009-10-04

Re: 700r4 VS 200r4. Whats the criteria?

Post by panelmanrd on Tue Mar 01, 2011 10:33 am

I built the trans mount so the trans would clear the floor with no problems
had to lower the engine crossmember one inch to get the correct shaft angle
just used longer bolts and a piece of one inch thick material and drilled out
some holes and that was that, no need to cut the floor!!!!!

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