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BRINGING IT ALL TOGETHER.... A's, G's & E's


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arracado
11 posters

General Cooling Questions

OutofSight
OutofSight


Number of posts : 1510
Location : Lake Oroville, Ca.
Registration date : 2015-11-19

General Cooling Questions - Page 2 Empty Re: General Cooling Questions

Post by OutofSight Fri Dec 28, 2018 2:38 pm

Thank you
arracado
arracado


Number of posts : 47
Location : Medford, OR
Age : 47
Registration date : 2018-08-14

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Post by arracado Sun Dec 30, 2018 11:35 am

Was the water pump different on a stock A100 with a 318? Perhaps a shorter nose cone?
arracado
arracado


Number of posts : 47
Location : Medford, OR
Age : 47
Registration date : 2018-08-14

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Post by arracado Sun Dec 30, 2018 1:29 pm

Hi everyone and happy new year! I'm trying to understand why I'm having so much trouble with my '64 w. 318 as far as the radiator and water pump fit. Couple of questions:

A100s didn't come with a 318 until 1967. Is the doghouse different (particularly the front panel and radiator mount) on a stock model '67 - '70 that came with a 318?

Would a stock A100 with a 318 use the same water pump as any 318 LA? My engine is a circa '74, and I have no idea what the donor vehicle was.

The problem I'm having is that the radiator that FSR built me doesn't fit without the fan motor hitting the water pump pulley. Not sure if the issue is the water pump, the radiator, or the doghouse front panel. My understanding was that an A100 is an A100, no matter the year or what engine it came with, as far as the doghouse anyway. The radiator has an electric fan built on to it, which makes the radiator "thicker" by default, but there's also no mechanical fan/clutch on the water pump, so i would think that would more than make up for the extra width of the electric fan. Anyway, this thing truly is a "mystery machine" and I'm just trying to further my understanding. Thanks for the help! Mad

Also, if it helps, here's what I've done so far:

Removed incorrect radiator
Replaced front doghouse panel
New radiator with electric fan fabricated by FSR
Removed electric water pump
Removed the disabled mechanical water pump
Purchased new mechanical WP:
https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/b/murray-temperature-control-4404/engine-parts---mounts-16774/timing-parts-16584/timing-belt---water-pump-kit-25109/water-pump-11368/1a1157ce3022/murray-temperature-control-water-pump-new/

Purchased new water pump pulley:
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/mch-10212

Purchased new crankshaft pulley:
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/mch-10049
OutofSight
OutofSight


Number of posts : 1510
Location : Lake Oroville, Ca.
Registration date : 2015-11-19

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Post by OutofSight Sun Dec 30, 2018 1:48 pm

I can tell you all dog houses are the same.
There maybe different length water pumps, and there are certainly different size pulleys.
When I get down to the shop, I will take a few pictures and measurements of my unmolested ‘68 318 A108 van.
OutofSight
OutofSight


Number of posts : 1510
Location : Lake Oroville, Ca.
Registration date : 2015-11-19

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Post by OutofSight Sun Dec 30, 2018 1:49 pm

I am interested in an fsr radiator, but you have me worried with the thickness. Can you take a pic and measurement for me?
arracado
arracado


Number of posts : 47
Location : Medford, OR
Age : 47
Registration date : 2018-08-14

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Post by arracado Sun Dec 30, 2018 2:10 pm

The FSR radiator is a thing of beauty. I think as long as you can take proper measurements they will make sure it will fit. Unfortunately because the disabled water pump that was on my engine had the nose cone shaved off, I had incorrect information. I think perhaps they may have gone with a thinner-profile fan that would have fit correctly.
Brandon2
Brandon2


Number of posts : 54
Location : San Francisco, CA
Registration date : 2016-01-18

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Post by Brandon2 Sun Dec 30, 2018 2:28 pm

The FSR radiator will fit with the stock mechanical fan.

It's the particular electric fan you have.  Keep in mind that electric radiators have a motor which makes them thicker than a mechanical.

I had an electric fan that fit with my FSR, but when I moved to a thicker Taurus fan, I built a custom shroud, and had to mount the radiator/fan/shroud about an inch lower to clear the engine.
arracado
arracado


Number of posts : 47
Location : Medford, OR
Age : 47
Registration date : 2018-08-14

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Post by arracado Sun Dec 30, 2018 2:38 pm

Thanks Brandon, that's very helpful info! I'm going to call FSR tomorrow and see if there might be a slimmer fan that will do the trick and fit with the work they've done.
sweetvan
sweetvan


Number of posts : 231
Location : Ventura, CA, 93003
Registration date : 2013-12-16

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Post by sweetvan Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:36 am

Arracado,
Sorry to hear that you are having troubles. Can the electric fan and motor be removed so that you can use a stock mechanical water pump and fan blade?

Also, is your van an automatic with transmission fluid running thru the lower part of the radiator?
arracado
arracado


Number of posts : 47
Location : Medford, OR
Age : 47
Registration date : 2018-08-14

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Post by arracado Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:26 am

sweetvan wrote:Arracado,
Sorry to hear that you are having troubles. Can the electric fan and motor be removed so that you can use a stock mechanical water pump and fan blade?

Also, is your van an automatic with transmission fluid running thru the lower part of the radiator?

Hi! The van has an external transmission cooler so I had the radiator fabricated without. Since the rad was custom built with a shroud that fits the fan I want to stay with the electric setup. I did speak to FSR and they said that there's no issue with having an angle to the rad, especially with the electric fan. I'm going to have some more time to wrench this weekend so gonna see if some spacers will do to move it forward just a bit. I'm pretty sure there's room at the front of the doghouse for it.
sweetvan
sweetvan


Number of posts : 231
Location : Ventura, CA, 93003
Registration date : 2013-12-16

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Post by sweetvan Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:14 am

Arrado,
I'd be interested to know what temperature the transmission coolant runs at and if you have an automatic fan that cools it. Was it much work to install it and did you upgrade the battery too?
Hope you get it running soon.
arracado
arracado


Number of posts : 47
Location : Medford, OR
Age : 47
Registration date : 2018-08-14

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Post by arracado Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:18 pm

The van came with the cooler already installed. No fan. In fact, it was just laying on the "belly pan" that was on the van, which was actually just a thin piece of wood. So unfortunately I can't comment on its effectiveness, but I'm sure it will work fine once I get it on there correctly. I believe I'll be able to mount it in front of the radiator but we'll see.
arracado
arracado


Number of posts : 47
Location : Medford, OR
Age : 47
Registration date : 2018-08-14

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Post by arracado Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:46 pm

OutofSight wrote:I can tell you all dog houses are the same.
There maybe different length water pumps, and there are certainly different size pulleys.
When I get down to the shop, I will take a few pictures and measurements of my unmolested ‘68 318 A108 van.

I purchased a front doghouse panel off a forumite and it's clearly different than the one that was in there as you can see (original is on the right). If you look at the bottom left of each you can see there's something different going on. Thoughts?

General Cooling Questions - Page 2 Img_5510
OutofSight
OutofSight


Number of posts : 1510
Location : Lake Oroville, Ca.
Registration date : 2015-11-19

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Post by OutofSight Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:52 pm

I have the same two doghouses, the one on the left is in my ‘65 and the other in my ‘68.
They function the same.
lws67
lws67


Number of posts : 193
Location : Upstate South Carolina
Age : 56
Registration date : 2012-06-20

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Post by lws67 Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:25 pm

Hopefully you get it sorted, but hindsight being 20-20 I'm baffled why the attempt to recreate the wheel. I believe you removed the setup that was on there, so why not just put the well thought out FSR radiator, a shroud if desired, and a good fan as has been posted about years ago ? It fits, it works. I'm running a 410 stroker with the FSR I installed (and did a detailed thread about) and am running no shroud, a 160° thermostat, an 8 vane water pump and a standard 15" Derale fan. No electric fans, no one off setups or additional fabrications. Its very simple. No cooling issues. No problems. There have been others who have done their own similar versions. You've got a whole different deal there, way too costly, complicated, and not needed. I say ditch the electric fan, put pulleys and a fan on and you're good......best of luck with what you have. Just keep in mind there is nothing, absolutely nothing "bolt-on" or "bolt-in" with these vans. Everything requires fabrication and modification.
Brandon2
Brandon2


Number of posts : 54
Location : San Francisco, CA
Registration date : 2016-01-18

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Post by Brandon2 Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:13 am

lws67 wrote:Hopefully you get it sorted, but hindsight being 20-20 I'm baffled why the attempt to recreate the wheel. I believe you removed the setup that was on there, so why not just put the well thought out FSR radiator, a shroud if desired, and a good fan as has been posted about years ago ? It fits, it works. I'm running a 410 stroker with the FSR I installed (and did a detailed thread about) and am running no shroud, a 160° thermostat, an 8 vane water pump and a standard 15" Derale fan. No electric fans, no one off setups or additional fabrications. Its very simple. No cooling issues. No problems.

lsw, while you can get by with a mechanical fan, there are benefits to an electric fan.  Moving to one made a big difference for me in keeping the van cool at idle, in traffic, and on hard driving on steep grades.

On grades, I always have to pull over once when going up 17 in Santa Cruz or the Grapevine in Southern California.  Taking a 7% grade at 50+ MPH for a long period of time is too much for these beasts.  When I hit 230-240, I pull over and idle, wait 2-3 minutes, and my engine is back to 165 degrees.  That's not going to happen with a mechanical fan.  I can do that when and if my engine ever overheats, and that security is priceless to me.

But then again, I thought you were running a slant 6 when you installed your FSR?  You also have a different config.  You're running a 410 stoker, which is a different engine than a 50 year old or rebuilt 318.  Didn't you also modify your exhaust?  That made a big difference in temps for me at one point.  Sort of hard to claim it's done and done if someone is having cooling problems, as there are so many other changes people make on these vans that impact cooling.
sweetvan
sweetvan


Number of posts : 231
Location : Ventura, CA, 93003
Registration date : 2013-12-16

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Post by sweetvan Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:15 am

LWS67,
Could you show pictures of your Derale transmission cooler setup? I didn't see any thing on it in your threads here on VV. It has an automatic electric fan right? Show us a link if you have one for that please.
Thanks, Sweetvan
lws67
lws67


Number of posts : 193
Location : Upstate South Carolina
Age : 56
Registration date : 2012-06-20

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Post by lws67 Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:09 pm

The old "up too late to be posting".....ahem, Shocked  but the point I think I was trying to make is that there were a few others who used the tug version, as well as worked with FSR to make a radiator that fit right in vs. doing like I and a few others have done, using mechanical fans, 8-vane pumps, correct ratio pulleys etc. I would bet FSR has not actually had an A100 vehicle to mock up one of their radiators along with a fan/shroud to ensure it clears a slant or v8. The exact pieces needed have to be sorted by the one doing the figuring and fabwork. An electric setup is good, but it is uncharted territory here as it regards the particular FSR setup used. As to my engine and use now, I drive it in hot humid southern weather occasionally, but as far as operating temps go stop and go, or interstate, etc whether slant or the 410, it remains the same.  An FSR w/no shroud (though a shroud would  be even better I know) and a mech. fan its a non issue...for me, of course. The problem here it seems is knowing dimensions of the setup from FSR especially depth. I'd agree with the post above, the fan blade and motor depth is too big, like I said its doubtful FSR had a vehicle to mock up, and that they have incorrect measurements.


Last edited by lws67 on Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:15 pm; edited 2 times in total
lws67
lws67


Number of posts : 193
Location : Upstate South Carolina
Age : 56
Registration date : 2012-06-20

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Post by lws67 Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:12 pm

sweetvan wrote:LWS67,
Could you show pictures of your Derale transmission cooler setup? I didn't see any thing on it in your threads here on VV. It has an automatic electric fan right? Show us a link if you have one for that please.
Thanks, Sweetvan
I can try to get some pictures posted, but I'm currently doing a few upgrades on that at the moment, i is likely more fabwork than most will want to mess with I'm sure.
lws67
lws67


Number of posts : 193
Location : Upstate South Carolina
Age : 56
Registration date : 2012-06-20

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Post by lws67 Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:52 pm

From radiator to water pump/timing cover mating line is 9" From radiator to face of fan is approx. 2 1/2" From radiator to water pump fan mounting face is 3 1/4" and the engine is mounted with factory brackets etc. Not much room for an electric fan even if I wanted to. And a couple pics of trans cooler, Derale Atomic, no radiator cooling, brackets and scoop fab'd, but will be adding lines to run it through the radiator tank cooler in series. General Cooling Questions - Page 2 Img_2023
General Cooling Questions - Page 2 Img_2022
General Cooling Questions - Page 2 Img_2021
sweetvan
sweetvan


Number of posts : 231
Location : Ventura, CA, 93003
Registration date : 2013-12-16

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Post by sweetvan Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:55 am

LWS, Thanks. I bet there would be lots of interest in a transmission cooling thread. Sweetvan.
arracado
arracado


Number of posts : 47
Location : Medford, OR
Age : 47
Registration date : 2018-08-14

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Post by arracado Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:58 am

There were a number of factors with this particular van that led me to take the path I'm on. And please keep in mind I'm not the most knowledgeable guy about working on vehicles but I know enough to get by and am always hoping to learn more. When this van started having cooling issues, one of the measures the previous owner took was to "lower the engine," as he put it. This also resulted in the transmission frame mount being cut away and the transmission suspended. So that's not helping trying to fit things in properly.

Given that type of thinking, I can only imagine what the original swap to the 318 went like. What I know is that I have a van that's a bit of a hack job, and a lot of what I'm trying to do is straighten that up a bit. The control module for the electric water pump was no longer working, the radiator was a total hatchet job (even cutting out a chunk of the doghouse). The electric fan on said radiator was hardwired to the battery with no switch or relay and hung on with pieces of coat hanger...he'd literally take the cable off the battery when he'd park it to turn off the fan. So while what was there could have been made functional, even with all that he was having cooling problems, so since the radiator was so dreadfully wrong, I figured I'd start there and build around that.

The good news is, I got it in! I was able to angle it so there's clearance from the water pump pulley. Also realized that FSR built me a radiator with a transmission cooler (pretty sure I ordered without), so that will replace the hanging one.


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Last edited by arracado on Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
arracado
arracado


Number of posts : 47
Location : Medford, OR
Age : 47
Registration date : 2018-08-14

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Post by arracado Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:08 pm

Sorry the pics came out cropped, if you click to view them in a new tab you can see the full size ones.
vanny
vanny
Moderator


Number of posts : 14737
Location : Ashburnham, MA
Age : 63
Registration date : 2012-09-22

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Post by vanny Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:30 pm

When you import the pics, just choose 640 pixels and then it shouldn't crop. I'll save and reimport yours and that should fix them.


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Brandon2
Brandon2


Number of posts : 54
Location : San Francisco, CA
Registration date : 2016-01-18

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Post by Brandon2 Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:43 pm

lsw, when you say 8 vane water pump, are you talking about stock or aftermarket?

arracado, what water pump is that you have -- clearly not stock?

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