Front end groaning on right hand turns

The front end on my '67 108 groans over uneven pavement, but only on right hand turns. I've checked all the bolts and they are tight, and the bushings have all been relatively recently replaced. It doesn't do it on left handers, and the noise appears to be coming from the right front.

I'm wondering if it could be the spring eye bolt through the frame boss. But I retorqued that to spec (70 ftlbs). I even took away the extra washer and lock washer to see if that would make it go away (the stock nut is an interference lock nut so a lock washer isn't really needed).

Now the front eye has the stock cartridge bushing that I replaced about a year ago.

I can't quite figure why the forces involved in rh turns are related to this noise.

I suppose I could check the rh shock absorber again. In the past these were on upper bolts that were a bit short and causing clunking on uneven pavement. That clunking has gone away with the correct size bolts, however. And the noise seems to be coming from the general area where the rh front eyebolt is attached, not from the wheel well area where the shock attaches.

The mystery of the machine continues...

,,,,,I think maybe take the shock absorbers off and see if the noise changes,,,,,,same test if you have a sway bar on it

Wheel bearing? Worn spindle? Side force from turning can do that?

I know what it is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have this same problem too!! I Groan in any turn (hard turn)-anyone over 50 age does!!!!!!!

LOL, my groaning mostly from sitting down, getting up, and stooping to pick up shit.

The shock detachment is probably the easiest troubleshooting method. Although those upper eyes can be devilish to put back in place. And because these shocks are about 1" too short, releasing them involves jacking up the frame in front and jacking up the front axle a little more. Yeah, I know, not the best situation but the previous owner had a lot of similarly less than optimum work done. They are Ranchos, and there is a better fitting Rancho out now that would probably be better.

I vote for wheel bearing or spindle problems......The hub would only have to be slightly out of place to cause rubbing issues with the brake drum against the backing plate, scuffing the edges of the brake shoes, even possibly causing tire rubs......Also might look at the side of the shock for rub marks......Is it only while rolling or can you demo it while static? Maybe try pushing on the bottom of the right wheel while rotating it (on a jack)........Best way to solve the mystery is to analyze the exact circumstances where the noise is present......

OK, the noise is only when pulling on the steering wheel to go right, and only over major changes in road elevation, like drainage dips, driveway entrances, etc.

The noise really seems to emanate from the right front wall of the cab, where the front spring eye would be attached underneath.

There's no sign of tire rubbing or shock contact. It's not that kind of noise, anyway. It's more like spring leaves grinding against each other or their mounts. And the leaves have been lubed and have plastic shims between them. I suppose I could pull the shims to see if they've worn to nothing. Kind of avoiding that what with the car shows and other stuff to do. It's always a major production with this thing... multiple jacks, crowbars, getting hands filthy, etc. Never had a vehicle with this much suspension noise. Even my '50 Plymouth is relatively silent compared to this.

There was once, apparently, a collision of some sort on the rh side. The front spring mount is a bit dented at the bottom front. As far as I can tell the actual area where the leaf eye inserts into the mount is not deformed, and the spring fits into it ok. But it's possible I need to get out a small hydraulic spreader on it to make sure it's not too tight.

The cartridge bushings for the front eyes are assembled from two cylinders and a rubber bushing. The inner and outer cylinders appear to be very tightly bonded to the rubber. But perhaps they shouldn't be so tight. Maybe if I pressed them apart and lubed them up real good (with rubber-safe synthetic grease) it would help matters. I have an old one laying about I could experiment with. Might have to assemble my hydraulic press (sitting new in box for the past 10 years) to do that, though. The bench vice probably won't open wide enough for that.

Fun and games!

Well I just went out to the shop and fetched an old front cartridge bushing. I was able to press out the center tube in the bench vise, but not the rubber bushing itself. That will take some extra effort and perhaps the bushing will be destroyed in the process. But I'm thinking I can use the old center tube with standard bushings, much like Donivan has already detailed elsewhere. Might even get some nice Performance Suspension red silicone bushings to put on it, if they fit. This way I can lube up the front bushings like I did already with the rear ones.

I also had a new front cartridge, but in the bench vise I was unable to budge the center tube much. That will take assembling the 20 ton hydraulic press I've had in a box for ten years. Might be about time anyway. But if not I think I have another old front cartridge bushing I can press out the center tube on the bench vise and use that for the other side once I determine that the concept works on the rh side.

Of course I'll also check out the rest of the front suspension when I'm under there to see if there's anything I missed, before starting tearing things apart again.

Alternatively I could just lube the heck out of the center tube and re-insert it into the front end. I figure there's a reason why a solid outer tube is used for these front bushings, and perhaps just lubing the center tube where it meets the rubber will be enough. There may be an engineering reason for using the solid outer tube bushing cartridge.

The leaf spring eye bushing cartridge is a bonded unit. The rubber is bonded to the steel sleave and inner tube. They are not suposed to come apart. if they do, they are scrap because the leaf spring will just slide over and up against the body making noise like you describe.
The fronts are still availible new. the part numbers are some where on this site.

Thanks.

The one I took apart is an OLD unit that I replaced with a NEW unit less than a year ago. I doubt that the new unit, still in the van, has become unbonded but I suppose you never know.

None of this explains why Donivan has had good success by replacing the stock bonded unit with separate inner tube and outer rubber bushings, with no outer tube, and nothing bonded...?

I will of course check what's currently in that position to see if it's become "unbonded".

I am thinking that those are 2 different systems,,,,,,the stock rubber ones depend on the inner sleeve not to move and the rubber has to twist between the sleeve and outer shell for movement,,,,while the polyurethane extends all the way to the perches and has more give for movement,,,,,that polyurethane and smooth bronze sleeve seem to be made to slip,,,,,,,,quietly,,,,,,,,,

how about taking a big screwdriver and see if you can get the spring to rub the perch showing that the spring slides on the bushing and hits the perch,,,,,,,,,

Thanks Don.

I found your old photo here:



When I pressed out the inner tube on my old cartridge bushing, it measures 3.475 inches. A new replacement cartridge bushing measures nearly the same, about 3.49 inches. I imagine I could use the pressed out inner tube with some new bushings like you pictured to replace the troublesome cartridge bushing. I agree that optimally the spring eye wants to move in a big circle around the bushing/bolt assembly. The bonded cartridge bushing I don't think allows for enough movement in that plane.

As I recall the fit is tight between the spring eye and the sides of the frame mount where the bolt goes through to hold the spring to the frame. So I don't anticipate much in the way of lateral movement, but I can check for that.

Well, a bit of the mystery may be solved. I jacked up the front end and took a closer look at the cartridge bushing in the right spring eye. The spring appeared to have shifted to the right (looking forward) so that the edge of the spring eye could possibly contact the frame boss. The spring eye isn't super tight on the cartridge outer shell, because I was able to shift it over to the left using a few whacks with a 2 lb mallet. So I expect turning forces may shift the eye back to where it doesn't belong. Since I was under there I also put some dabs of synthetic grease where the eye might rub the frame boss. If the noise goes away with the next test drive (in about an hour), that will probably indicate this was the source of the problem.

Fixing it permanently may be another matter. I do have new cartridge bushings I could stick in there, but I'm not sure they will be any tighter than this one. We'll just have to see. It might also be possible to stick some large washers in there to smooth the contact when it occurs. I'd rather not have the front of the spring shifting at all, since that may throw off the alignment/steering center.

I have had a hard time finding metal cartridges that actually fit in tightly,,,,,,and they need to,,,,,either they dont make them large enough or the hole expands over the years,,,,,thats why I use the polyurethane ones,,,,,,,

donivan65 wrote:I have had a hard time finding  metal cartridges that actually fit in tightly,,,,,,and they need to,,,,,either they dont make them large enough or the hole expands over the years,,,,,thats why I use the polyurethane ones,,,,,,,

Thanks.

Care to post (again) the part numbers and vendor for those front eye polyurethane bushings?

Just did test drive and the hammer plus grease got rid of the groaning..,

I used the pres in cartrige from Rare Parts (listed in the link) so far it is working right.

On the rear of the 1st gen van I used the bushings Don says because that is all that is availible for them springs. they work fine because they have side cusions the cartriage does not.


https://vintage-vans.forumotion.com/t40852-2nd-gen-leaf-spring-bushings-2014?highlight=spring+bushings

Thanks for the link!

It occurs to me that the current cartridge bushing could be made to fit tight enough with some strategically placed brass or stainless steel shims. Because the eye itself is formed from a loop of spring steel, with the join open (not welded) I'd put the shim inside the loop opposite the "open" end.

I dimly recall that when I was replacing both front cartridge bushings a year or two ago, that the right side was far easier to insert into the spring eye than the left side. I didn't think much of it at the time, in fact I was happy it was easier. I used a variety of C-clamps and C-clamp like devices; too much interference could require pulling the spring out of the van and setting up the hydraulic press. Which I'd like to avoid.

,,,my favorite tool is called a ball joint installer,,,,,,,and with an electric impact gun, I can put 3 tons of pressure on any ball or u joint, kingpin or spring bushing cartridge with the squeeze of a button,,,,,

Yeah, I think I have one of those, and used it last time.

the stock cartridges are 3 5/8" long,,,,,,sleeves are 3" long,,,,so I buy an extra one and add 5/8" to keep the perch from pulling into the spring,,,,,,,my place for the parts closed down,,,,,but I might of found another place,,,,,an offroad or 4WD place might have these parts,,,,,,



you would need the 3" sleeve with the 1/2" bolt hole for a 2nd gen

Thanks Don.

I measured the cart that came out of the van a couple of years ago, and a new one, and they both measure about 3.5 inches, not 3.625.

Lock tight makes a Bushing locker . as long as the cartridge is some what tight, add the bushing lock and it will work.