First Econoline Purchase Questions

Great forum, been lurking for quite some time and trying to educate myself best as possible before I purchase my first Econoline.

Knowing what I want and from what I have read. I think a 65-67 Panel is what I am in the market for. I understand those years came with the heavy duty cross member as well as the larger 170 or 240 engine. I may be wrong about coming with the 240 but I believe the 240 will be a direct bolt in. I also was under the impression that these years came with the 9" rear end. Or was that the heavy duty version only?

So I have a chance to look at one this weekend, and the tag tells me these things

Tag E14FH  So it's an Econoline Van
F: 170ci Engine
H: Lorian Ohio
E141: Van (hd) 4350 GVW 3/4 ton payload
83: Government
0160: Special Order
01: Axle 7.25" gear 3.5.1 ratio

So this has a 7" rear end not a 9" is that correct? Was really looking for a 240 engine 9" rear end package. This possible or hard to come by? I like that it's the HD version

Last the cargo doors on the side have glass, I don't mind the panel doors but was looking for solid doors, how hard is it to find replacements?

Thanks in advance guys!

If you want a 65-67 with a 240, I'd hold out for one. The 170 has a different crossmember than the 240. Someone recently stated that all 240 models have the 9" rear. Shouldn't be to hard to come by in California. Doors can be found with or without windows fairly easily.

Seth G wrote:If you want a 65-67 with a 240, I'd hold out for one. The 170 has a different crossmember than the 240.  Someone recently stated that all 240 models have the 9" rear. Shouldn't be to hard to come by in California. Doors can be found with or without windows fairly easily.

Will the 65-67 240ci be a HD version as well?

Welcome.

A few years ago you could buy parts vans pretty cheap and get all the parts to convert a 170 over to a 240 pretty easy. No so much today. You would be better off buying what you want in the first place. If you are dead set on a 240 then by all means buy a 65-67. You really need the trans hump to install the 240. If you buy an early truck (61-64) then I would recommend putting a 200 in it. Pretty good engines with good power. Easy to wake up with some mods.

The one your are looking at is a small rear as you know. Nine inch rears are getting harder to find as well. Vic in So Cal has some available.

Early 61-62 Heavy Duty trucks are not the same as 63-67 Heavy Duty trucks. Early GVW's were based on the tires installed and not the construction of the truck. 1/2 tons got 4 ply tires, 3/4 ton got 6 ply tires and 1 tons got 8 ply tires. True Heavy Duty trucks have a thicker frame and cross members. Heavier springs and nine inch rears. These were built from 63-67. 63 and 64's could only get the 170 engine. Some trucks came with nine inch rears if a special gear ratio was ordered. The 7 and 7.25 rears were only available in 3.5 and 4.0 ratios.

Solid doors are also getting hard to find. It's not too hard to reskin the window door into a panel.

Don't buy the first thing that comes along. There are a bunch of Econolines for sale on any given day. Wait until the right one comes along. It's a lot easier to start with what you want that to try and modify the wrong truck.

Duane in Tennessee

econopoor wrote:Welcome.

A few years ago you could buy parts vans pretty cheap and get all the parts to convert a 170 over to a 240 pretty easy. No so much today. You would be better off buying what you want in the first place. If you are dead set on a 240 then by all means buy a 65-67. You really need the trans hump to install the 240. If you buy an early truck (61-64) then I would recommend putting a 200 in it. Pretty good engines with good power. Easy to wake up with some mods.

The one your are looking at is a small rear as you know. Nine inch rears are getting harder to find as well. Vic in So Cal has some available.

Early 61-62 Heavy Duty trucks are not the same as 63-67 Heavy Duty trucks. Early GVW's were based on the tires installed and not the construction of the truck. 1/2 tons got 4 ply tires, 3/4 ton got 6 ply tires and 1 tons got 8 ply tires. True Heavy Duty trucks have a thicker frame and cross members. Heavier springs and nine inch rears. These were built from 63-67. 63 and 64's could only get the 170 engine. Some trucks came with nine inch rears if a special gear ratio was ordered. The 7 and 7.25 rears were only available in 3.5 and 4.0 ratios.

Solid doors are also getting hard to find. It's not too hard to reskin the window door into a panel.

Don't buy the first thing that comes along. There are a bunch of Econolines for sale on any given day. Wait until the right one comes along. It's a lot easier to start with what you want that to try and modify the wrong truck.

Duane in Tennessee

Duane,

Thanks for the info. When I was younger I had a 54' chevy with a 235 straight six 3 on the tree. I have yet to drive one of these ford 6 cylinders. I can only imagine what a slug the 170 would be vs my old 235

I could live with a 200 straight 6. What years did the 200 come in the econoline and is it possible to find one with a 200 ford 9" combo?

My wants I think are pretty simple.

1. Panel
2. Larger motor then the 144 or 170
3. Ford 9"
4. Running

The rest can be a project and I want a project nothing fancy

This Econoline I am looking at is a 1967 so I was surprised it came with a 170 and 7.25" Rear end, even though it's a heavy duty version.

Kind of bummed. How rare or hard to find a 240 with a 9" in a panel version here in Socal I will travel to Norcal as well.

A 200 in an Econoline is extremely rare. So for only three known examples exist. And the one I've seen was a completely different that a 170 Econoline of the same year. Different driveshaft, trans mount, bell housing, and clutch. No big deal though. Ford built a bunch of 200's all during to 70's and they bolt right into 61-67 little six Econolines.

My 61 with a tired 170 is pretty weak. About 55-60 is all it will do. I an planning a 200 swap soon. Several friends have 200's and are very happy with them. Many would rather have a 200 over a 240. One friend drives his on the interstates with a OD three speed and the stock 7.25 4.0 rear at 75mph. No problems.

A lot of vans have already had a 200 installed. They are a very popular swap.

You could get a 9 with a 170 if you wanted a different gear ratio. The Dagenham 4 speed Econolines came with 9's because they needed a 4.56 to help get them rolling. The 9's are quite common and can easily be swapped in. Just be sure and get the appropriate driveshaft with it. I believe they are 13different driveshafts for all the different combos you could get. The little rears use a small u joint. Nines use a larger u joint.

Duane in Tennessee.

bobby light wrote:This Econoline I am looking at is a 1967 so I was surprised it came with a 170 and 7.25" Rear end, even though it's a heavy duty version.

Kind of bummed. How rare or hard to find a 240 with a 9" in a panel version here in Socal I will travel to Norcal as well.

If it's a true Heavy Duty it should have a nine inch. I'm thinking that HD badges may have been added. Sometimes people swap doors with ones from other vehicles. Did this one have the doors swapped?

I see a bunch of them in Oregon pretty cheap. Search the Craigslist up there.

Duane in Tennessee

econopoor wrote:

bobby light wrote:This Econoline I am looking at is a 1967 so I was surprised it came with a 170 and 7.25" Rear end, even though it's a heavy duty version.

Kind of bummed. How rare or hard to find a 240 with a 9" in a panel version here in Socal I will travel to Norcal as well.

I see a bunch of them in Oregon pretty cheap. Search the Craigslist up there.

Duane in Tennessee

My only concern about Oregon = RUST

They did make a 240/9 in a panel version correct?

Seems like I can only find that combo in the Falcon/Window version, which I don't want.

I'm informed that Oregon doesn't use salt. Stuff looks pretty good from what I've seen.

Duane in Tennessee

Northwest vans hold up pretty good with little care if my van is any indication. They did make HD 240/9" panels or at least 6-door vans. I have a friend here in town that has one that was a former bell tel van. For drivability, these old van suffer the same problem as most vehicles of the era, 3-speeds with no OD and piss poor handling. The advantage I see with the 240 is you could drop a 300 straight in and/or you can bolt any modern transmission you like to them as long as it can be linkage or cable shifted. That's why I'm putting a 250 in my 64.

Very informative info here. I was a bit surprised the '65 with the 170 and small diff couldn't get a direct swap for a 240.

Also, why was it mentioned that the 200 is better off anyway over the 240?

My little 170 is purring but past 55 or 60 she starts to give me dirty looks...

Good luck with your search!

The 9" first came in ours in 63 and ONLY as a H/D version. ANY H/D from the factory had a 9" in it regardless of the engine size. There being two reasons for the 9".  Firstly of course if you had any engine larger than the reported rare 200 it needed a stronger rear axle. I was the person speaking about the 240 and it always having a 9" in it as Ford would not stand behind the smaller rear axle in a larger motor.  Pretty basic there.  Stronger motor needing a stronger rear axle.  In addition to that, the other reason for the Econoline 9" rear axle for a larger motor was that it had larger brake pads. Again,, why put a big motor in it and not be able to stop the truck????
 Over the years, doors and badges get changed and so if the doors say H/D on them but you have the smaller rear axle chances are they didn't come from the factory that way. 
  Because 65 was the 1st year that a 240 was available Ford had to also make the doghouse TALLER for the larger motor option and instead of making two different doghouses they simply used the same for either engine option, of course also adding the hump in the rear for added bellhousing clearance. First realizing there was an issue there with the one year only 64 donout mount C4 and having to lower the engine height because of no bellhousing clearance for it. 
  From 65 to 67,,, EVERYTHING is a bolt on or in.  You can simply take any part on the lates and bolt it into another late.  In order to make things easier, they simply made the cross member towers different for a small six versus the large six (240).  The frame mounts and the cross member itself are identical for all the lates,, the only difference being in the towers that the motor mounts bolt onto.
The radiator support is the same, so on, so on.
  The key in having a 67 is that it was the ONLY year Econoline to have the highly sought after DUAL master cylinder, which makes putting  in disc brakes easier.  Some of the Federal laws requiring padded dashes, dual master cylinders and back up lights. If you look at a lot of cars and trucks the back up lights are a dead give away if its a 67 or later...
  In regards to the gearing.  Gearing and engine size are directly related and work together, with gearing ALWAYS a compromise of something??  A smaller motor needing help with gearing and so the reason for high gearing with a small motor. The motor just doesn't have the oomph to pull the load and needs the gearing.  The COMPRIMISE being the truck does NOT LIKE THE FREEWAY speeds because of the gearing. With a larger motor it has more pulling power and so you can run a stiffer gear and a higher top end speed without revving the motor like a sewing machine... gearing always a compromise of something....
 The Dag box pretty well known for a low 1st and a high rear end gearing in order to make up for no power,,, It being intended to pull the weight, with a smaller motor and not to cruise at 70... Never designed for it.  3rd gear is always 1/1,,, the differences being in the gearing pattern to get there.  The Dag even being 1to1 in 4th gear. The idea in it being an extra low 1st the same as a GRANNY box in order to get the truck moving and usually in the 4:00 gearing regardless of a 9" or a 7:25. Actually having three of the small rear ends here with the high gearing for that reason. 
  With 63 being the 1st year for the H/D version and the 9" axle the drive shaft used the smaller front u joint of the smaller 170 transmission (the larger input shaft and differently geared 240 transmission not available until 65) and the larger 9" u-joint. So, the 63 and the 64 H/D versions using a special drive shaft with two different sized u-joints in it. Like mentioned there being a lot of drive shaft lengths,, hearing from 9 to now 13,, ?? Drive shaft lengths the least issue of anything...
  The 240 three speed manual with a larger input shaft, larger clutch AND different gearing than the 170 three speed manual because of the larger motor.
  I have worked on a LOT of 200's in our trucks, and they are a GREAT little motor. VERY SNAPPY and will easily spin the rear tire if you want to, very economical and a very good choice. It wont have the grunt that a 240 or a 300 has but it will certainly get it on.... Personally I think its a very good choice for ours with the 3:50 gearing seeming to be the best COMPRIMISE as I see it.
  You cannot go wrong with the 9" rear axle, it may weigh a little bit more but IMO in the big picture the ease of changing gear ratios and having the larger 2 1/2" brakes is well worth it.
  Vic

econopoor wrote:

bobby light wrote:This Econoline I am looking at is a 1967 so I was surprised it came with a 170 and 7.25" Rear end, even though it's a heavy duty version.

Kind of bummed. How rare or hard to find a 240 with a 9" in a panel version here in Socal I will travel to Norcal as well.

If it's a true Heavy Duty it should have a nine inch. I'm thinking that HD badges may have been added. Sometimes people swap doors with ones from other vehicles. Did this one have the doors swapped?

I see a bunch of them in Oregon pretty cheap. Search the Craigslist up there.

Duane in Tennessee

A door swap is a possibility.

I am new to this, so I can't tell if this is a 170 just by the photo.

I included the door tag and a photo of the engine.

That is definitely a 240 and you MUST have a 9" with it.  The small sixes which include the 250 ALL had the intake manifold cast as a part of the cylinder head. The big sixes ( 240 or the 300) had an intake like yours that bolts onto the cylinder head.
  It sounds like you may not understand how to tell if  you have a 9" rear axle????  Its also very easy. The 9" does NOT have a cover on the back of it that unbolts. The 9" has what is commonly referred to as a "third member" or gear carrier,,, which comes out of the front of the housing. The 7.25 with a cover that bolts onto the rear of the axle housing..
Vic

Old Skool, Bobby light, Econometrics...
Thanks a bunch for all this detailed information. We should definitely make this info a sticky cause the question will keep on being asked and it's nice to have it all there ready for us!

I'm still not sure why some prefer the 200 over the 240? Is it for fuel economy, easier to find out to work on,  reliability?

Thanks again!!!
Mr. D

They're both pretty reliable motors with 7 main bearings, naturally balanced I-6's. The 240 weighs around 100# more, but you get an extra 50# of torque. Go to a 300 and you get another 50# of torque for about the same weight as the 240. It's likely just personal preference. A lot of people just prefer to swap to a V8, inbtween the big and little sixes in weight and a lot more power a lot cheaper. Then there's some that have thrown V6's in. Personally I like straight sixes, they're great motors. I had a Toyota Cressida with a big straight 6 that was awesome, and never gave me any grief. My van has one and so does my pickup.

Torque and gearing work together. The more the torque the better the gearing options become. The 300 in one of mine is twice the motor the 240 it had before and opened up all kinds of gearing options. The 200 in my other one is great for small things and good gas mileage but wont pull what the 300 will, and less gearing latitude because of it.
  The big sixes with a serious issue of carb perc because of the intake bolted to the exhaust manifold and always will have because of that. To address that issue on a big six in an Econoline can get very expensive and involved because of the doghouse which makes the V8 much easier to do. The ONLY added issue of a V8 is the V8 cross member modification. Big sixes known for longer stroke with more torque. All a matter of how hard you want to push on the gas pedal...LOL  Like I said,, gearing is always a compromise of something,,,,
Vic

Thanks for the information posted quickly in this thread. I will be headed on Sunday to take a look at this Econoline. Looks like the tag is not the correct representation of the drive train in is this econoline. I will post back and hopefully have a new project

If you're not too picky on small dents this one has all your "wants" for $2000...

http://bend.craigslist.org/cto/4635058086.html

Already contacted him. Said he has a buyer coming this weekend. If it falls through I will head up there for sure!

Hello Bobby light.
That is a 240 and the door tag says it should have a 170 so I'm sure it's had a door swap. Just because it says 3/4 ton payload doesn't make it a heavy duty. As I said earlier, payload could be changed with tires. It is a 67 with a 240 and that's always a plus. It deserves a better look but I'd see how it's titled. It shouldn't be titled to that door tag because it is wrong. The real VIN number is on the trans hump right where the rear wall of the doghouse bolts to it. You sure don't want to buy a van with bogus paper work.

Duane in Tennessee

Abitibi wrote:Old Skool, Bobby light, Econometrics...
Thanks a bunch for all this detailed information. We should definitely make this info a sticky cause the question will keep on being asked and it's nice to have it all there ready for us!

I'm still not sure why some prefer the 200 over the 240? Is it for fuel economy, easier to find out to work on,  reliability?

Thanks again!!!
Mr. D

Who is Econometrics??

It's really hard to put all the information in one place. Ford was all over the place with what fits what. A lot is personal preference and what you want from your van/truck. There are basically three Econolines. Earlies, 61-64. Late little six trucks, 65-67 and big six trucks, 65-67. 65-67 trucks are the most desirable as you can do anything you want with them. Stronger frames, little and big sixes can be swapped either way. Easy to put v-8s in them.
Early trucks have all sorts of problems. Small doghouse, no trans hump, weak engine and trans mounts, thin frames. Now you can build a great truck with an early but it's going to take a lot more work and fabrication. Later trucks save a ton of work but they are harder to find.

Duane in Tennessee.

67 is the best of em all,,,,  E flasher, dual master and all the mentioned better doghouse and frame options. If you can get a nice 67 ,,,  you got the best.
  Really three that we talk about with 64 by itself as one of the earlies. Basically the 64 the "change year" when Ford learned their problems and stepped up to the plate in 65. Earlies considered from 61 to 64 and lates from 65 to 67.  61 and 62 with the thin gauge frame thickness and prone to cracks in the frame up front. Third ones mentioned quite often the GENII's,, from 68 to 74 and some parts being able to be used.   Things like the 28 spline third member, steering wheel and turn signal unit being able to be used in ours.
  VERY common for door swaps, which changes the VIN plate on 63 to 67 unless someone was smart enough to change it out also?  Correct VIN numbers are under the doghouse lid on the passengers side floor flange, rear light bracket and purposely made visible on the top of the floor hump in the back of the doghouse.  61 and 62 with VIN plate on front drivers side hinge pillar.
  64 the ONLY year with two transmission mounting holes in the frame for the early donout mount. 67  the 1st year for e flashers in the steering column and a dual master cylinder and back up lights. Extendo's using the same lights as the Bronco with back up light in them, 67 shorty with chrome bezeled back up lights similar to a Mustang but different.
  All lates with a interchangeable parts like the first year option of the big six, axles, engines, radiators, etc.,,,
Vic

Econometrics is what my smart ass phone decided to write instead of Econopoor

Seriously, we need to re-title this post to "the basic of drivelines swap" or something similar...

I've learned more in one post than weeks of reading on this forum!

Cheers
Mr. D