+4
DanTheVanMan
64chevy
donivan65
veefre
8 posters
Noisy rear axle...
veefre- Number of posts : 424
Location : San Leandro, California
Registration date : 2008-09-10
donivan65- Governor
- Number of posts : 12218
Location : San Diego, California
Registration date : 2008-05-12
- Post n°52
Re: Noisy rear axle...
Well,,,,,,them axles are shot! And in my book,.those repair bearings are useless,,,,,at least those seals in them are,,,,,,,and they are REAL SENSITIVE,,,,you don't want to touch them with anything when you install them,,,,,,that means don't beat on them when installing the bearing and don't hit them with the axle when you shove it in to try and put the C clips on it,,,,,,we usually have to grind the inside of the axle flange so it don't hit the seal while trying to get the C clips on,,,,,,,,,,,you really need a heavier seal in there to stand up to that axle jumping around in that bearing........
Digz- Number of posts : 3794
Location : United States Six Lakes MI
Registration date : 2008-05-17
- Post n°53
Re: Noisy rear axle...
The repair bearings I used were pre-lubed and said not to add any grease. After grinding that square edge off the flange I used a large C clamp to gently draw the axle in just far enough to get the clip on. eliminates the shock to the spring in the seal and also holds it in place to get the clip on.
veefre- Number of posts : 424
Location : San Leandro, California
Registration date : 2008-09-10
- Post n°54
Re: Noisy rear axle...
Digz,
A C-clamp to "gently" depress the end of the axle sounds like a very good idea. Thanks for the suggestion.
Don,
Just how are you grinding the end of the axle? Are you using a grinding machine, or simply a hand-held angle grinder?
A C-clamp to "gently" depress the end of the axle sounds like a very good idea. Thanks for the suggestion.
Don,
Just how are you grinding the end of the axle? Are you using a grinding machine, or simply a hand-held angle grinder?
Digz- Number of posts : 3794
Location : United States Six Lakes MI
Registration date : 2008-05-17
- Post n°55
Re: Noisy rear axle...
donivan65- Governor
- Number of posts : 12218
Location : San Diego, California
Registration date : 2008-05-12
- Post n°56
Re: Noisy rear axle...
And make sure the vent is not clogged up so that pressure does not build up and force the oil out onto the brake shoes,,,,,,but that would be a common problem with those replacement bearings and that seal,,,,,,the oil gets out and and onto the shoes and the wheel grabs when you hit the brakes. You REALLY need a a double lipped seal in there,,,,,,,,and even if you get the bearing in without damaging it, the axle rubs on the top lip of the seal and moves away from the lower lip because of the weight of the van and the sloppy fit of the bearing to the axle and it leaks. So,,,,,,,I would be on the lookout for better axles and put the heavy duty bearing and seal back in there. And a Dremel tool will work to grind the flange down so it don't hit the seal when you push it in to get the C clips on.
Digz- Number of posts : 3794
Location : United States Six Lakes MI
Registration date : 2008-05-17
- Post n°57
Re: Noisy rear axle...
Im wondering if there are more than 1 type of repair bearings. The ones I used have an inner seal as well making them a sealed unit. They dont require the differential fluid to get to them. Maybe instead of calling them "repair bearings" we should be calling them " get me by till I can afford axles bearings".
The inner seal.
The inner seal.
donivan65- Governor
- Number of posts : 12218
Location : San Diego, California
Registration date : 2008-05-12
- Post n°58
Re: Noisy rear axle...
"Better still,,,,,,lets put these in so I can go get good axles, bearings and seals" I seen those double sealed bearings,,,,maybe thats how they come nowadays,,,,,,but that don't sit right with me,,,,,,,bearings need grease,,,,,or oil,,,,,it seems the inner seal stops the oil from coming in,,,,,,,so you got to live on whats in there when you get them,,,,,,bearings need repacking,,,,do they tell you pull the axles and repack the bearings every 12,000 miles? I am thinking WHEN those bearings run dry,,,,,,it spins and WRECKS your rear end housing,,,,,unless those seals wear out first and the oil comes in and out and all over your shoes. And aint that inner seal kinda riding in the bad spot of your axle anyways?
Digz- Number of posts : 3794
Location : United States Six Lakes MI
Registration date : 2008-05-17
- Post n°59
Re: Noisy rear axle...
The seal rides inside of the old bearing position. I raised my eyebrows at them to when I got them. Most I can figure is they are a half breed between a real sealed bearing and the original , all the newer stuff and some of the old stuff uses sealed bearings and yep ,, they fail a little quicker, If the seals fail in mine they will show up real easy,,be all over the wheel,, so far so good only time will tell. Also a consideration is the grade of "grease" used in pre-packed bearings as compared to the basically heavy oil in the differential. Nothing is better than new , but my pockets aint that deep and I want to actually drive it some.
donivan65- Governor
- Number of posts : 12218
Location : San Diego, California
Registration date : 2008-05-12
- Post n°60
Re: Noisy rear axle...
You gotta do what you gotta do,,,,,,and we need all the information that we can get,,,,,what works, what don't,,,,,,,what is better,,,,,what can you use,,,,where can you get it,,,,,,what to look out for,,,,,,,thats what this site is all about,,,,,,,,,,CHOICES,,,,,,,, do you have more time than money,,,,,,,do you have more money than time,,,,,,it's all good,,,,,,,,,,
veefre- Number of posts : 424
Location : San Leandro, California
Registration date : 2008-09-10
- Post n°61
Re: Noisy rear axle...
"...them axles are shot!..."
Uh, yeah. That's why I installed repair bearings in the first place ;-)...
"...I used a 4 inch grinder..."
Looks like you did a good job, maintaining the fillet and all. That's probably important so that there isn't a sharp corner, which otherwise cold weaken the part and cause premature cracking/failure.
I got such a small grinder (think it's 5") and it should do well enough. I'm a machinist but maintaining that fillet on a manual lathe, without a special cutter, could be a bit tricky. I know guys who use hand held grinders on parts turning slowly in lathes, and that would probably do a pretty good job, but it's hell on the lathe bed ways etc. Grinding dust and machine tools don't mix too well. I'd lathe it up at home with a custom cutter but my home lathe isn't big enough, and I'm not too keen on bringing the axles into the job site 'cause it could create issues.
"...You gotta do what
you gotta do,,..."
Yeah, there's a frame and axle place near my job, I might drop in there one day after work and see how much a new pair of axles would run. I gather one can't just order them from GM any more... or can you?
".... I'm wondering if there are more than 1 type of repair bearings..."
Do you have a mfg and/or part number for those double sealed repair bearings you pictured?
Uh, yeah. That's why I installed repair bearings in the first place ;-)...
"...I used a 4 inch grinder..."
Looks like you did a good job, maintaining the fillet and all. That's probably important so that there isn't a sharp corner, which otherwise cold weaken the part and cause premature cracking/failure.
I got such a small grinder (think it's 5") and it should do well enough. I'm a machinist but maintaining that fillet on a manual lathe, without a special cutter, could be a bit tricky. I know guys who use hand held grinders on parts turning slowly in lathes, and that would probably do a pretty good job, but it's hell on the lathe bed ways etc. Grinding dust and machine tools don't mix too well. I'd lathe it up at home with a custom cutter but my home lathe isn't big enough, and I'm not too keen on bringing the axles into the job site 'cause it could create issues.
"...You gotta do what
you gotta do,,..."
Yeah, there's a frame and axle place near my job, I might drop in there one day after work and see how much a new pair of axles would run. I gather one can't just order them from GM any more... or can you?
".... I'm wondering if there are more than 1 type of repair bearings..."
Do you have a mfg and/or part number for those double sealed repair bearings you pictured?
veefre- Number of posts : 424
Location : San Leandro, California
Registration date : 2008-09-10
- Post n°62
Re: Noisy rear axle...
PS-I still think the source of all these rear axle bearing problems is the penny pinching on the part of the auto mfg's who save a few cents per axle by skipping on using a real bearing, with hardened steel inner race, and instead just let the outer bearing rollers ride on the presumably unhardened but polished axle itself. Might be case hardened, I don't know. But probably not.
My '64 Valiant has real axle bearings, big hefty things they are, so I was a bit surprised to see that a later vehicle has this cheap ass solution. But then I guess a lot of the GM vehicles used that method, and I understand that later BOL Chrysler products did, as well.
My '64 Valiant has real axle bearings, big hefty things they are, so I was a bit surprised to see that a later vehicle has this cheap ass solution. But then I guess a lot of the GM vehicles used that method, and I understand that later BOL Chrysler products did, as well.
donivan65- Governor
- Number of posts : 12218
Location : San Diego, California
Registration date : 2008-05-12
- Post n°63
Re: Noisy rear axle...
Those same bearings are used in Ford Mustangs,,,,,and we think we got problems chewing axles,,,,,,,,when they order new bearings and seals it always comes with a new set of axles,,,,,,,and as for that double sealed repair bearing, VanAgain usually does not like to cross the street to Napa so he goes to Carquest,,,,,,,so we can get the information from him,,,,,,,,
donivan65- Governor
- Number of posts : 12218
Location : San Diego, California
Registration date : 2008-05-12
- Post n°64
Re: Noisy rear axle...
Digz- Number of posts : 3794
Location : United States Six Lakes MI
Registration date : 2008-05-17
- Post n°65
Re: Noisy rear axle...
These were 32$ a pop at the local Auto value.
Don, I believe the 12 bolt van bearings may be the same as the 10's , If Im reading things right in the listings , you dont get larger unless you get them for an actual truck rear end , the van 12 bolt has 1.3999 axles and the trucks have the 1.6 somethings. I ordered the truck kit and the axle bearings were way to big. would have to confirm this with part # crossing. well by our parts listing the stock 10's and 12 bolts are the same !
donivan65- Governor
- Number of posts : 12218
Location : San Diego, California
Registration date : 2008-05-12
- Post n°66
Re: Noisy rear axle...
OK, lets see what VanAgain got for his 12 bolt,,,,,,,,I am thinking the 3:73/4:10 axles in our vans take those bigger 6408/1559 sized bearings,,,,,,,,
Digz- Number of posts : 3794
Location : United States Six Lakes MI
Registration date : 2008-05-17
- Post n°67
Re: Noisy rear axle...
well mines a 4:11 12 bolt and thats what it took.
Guest- Guest
- Post n°68
Re: Noisy rear axle...
new axle kits from summit run about 260 if i remember correctly and they include studs,seals and bearings.
donivan65- Governor
- Number of posts : 12218
Location : San Diego, California
Registration date : 2008-05-12
- Post n°69
Re: Noisy rear axle...
Our problem is finding good axles for the Vans and even if the bearings are the same, the splines are different,,,,,,,the 3:36 and 3:73 have different axle splines and maybe those 4:10's also,,,,,,,,,, the 3:36 is the most common,,,,,,,,
veefre- Number of posts : 424
Location : San Leandro, California
Registration date : 2008-09-10
- Post n°70
Re: Noisy rear axle...
Fitments...
The Summit web site lists a variety of axle kits ... 8.8, 8.875, 8.5, 30 spline and 28 spline... Do the 8.x number refer to the diameter of the flange?
As I recall, the differential cover on my '67 van is a 10 bolt. The timken kit says it's for a 10 bolt 1.3999 diameter axle. I never counted the splines on the diff end, though.
At $250 a pair, it's actually not that bad, considering the time,labor, etc. involved in installing repair bearings, and also eliminating the leaking issue (which results in needing new brake shoes as well).
Seriously considering an axle kit.
Summit seems also to have two steel types. I assume the more expensive steel (1541H vs 1541 Carbon). Don't know if that is same alloy or what. I'd look it up but it's late already, after a 10.5 ot hour working Saturday (will help to pay for new axles, so what the heck).
The Summit web site lists a variety of axle kits ... 8.8, 8.875, 8.5, 30 spline and 28 spline... Do the 8.x number refer to the diameter of the flange?
As I recall, the differential cover on my '67 van is a 10 bolt. The timken kit says it's for a 10 bolt 1.3999 diameter axle. I never counted the splines on the diff end, though.
At $250 a pair, it's actually not that bad, considering the time,labor, etc. involved in installing repair bearings, and also eliminating the leaking issue (which results in needing new brake shoes as well).
Seriously considering an axle kit.
Summit seems also to have two steel types. I assume the more expensive steel (1541H vs 1541 Carbon). Don't know if that is same alloy or what. I'd look it up but it's late already, after a 10.5 ot hour working Saturday (will help to pay for new axles, so what the heck).
veefre- Number of posts : 424
Location : San Leandro, California
Registration date : 2008-09-10
- Post n°71
Re: Noisy rear axle...
Update,
I got the second Timken repair bearing today. I also called around about the National RP-5707 and turns out Kragen had it in a different brand - also USA made - for less: $25 ea. So I got a pair of those, as well. I think the brand is Master Pro They are the same diameter as the Timkens, which fit quite well the last time I put some in ( about 2 years ago now). Then I really had to search for a new diff cover gasket. As usual the van either isn't properly listed in the books or nobody had the right gasket in stock. Finally a Napa parts guy let me look through his catalog, I took measurements on the diff on the truck, and selected one from his book that looked closest. I think it's the right one. But by the time I got home from driving to five different parts stores I decided to put off pulling the axles till next weekend.
Oh, and I discovered the cause of the grabby back brakes. Turns out I had over-adjusted the parking brake some time back, probably because the leaking grease and/or oil had already gotten to the brake shoe linings. So I backed way off on the parking cable adjustment and no more binding/grabbing. And with most of the lube cleaned out of the brakes, the parking brake actually kinda sort works well enough for the time being. The rear brakes were probably dragging a bit before, although the shoes and the drums didn't show abnormal wear, probably because of the oil contamination. I expect the gas mileage will improve now.
The Master Pro repair bearings are pre-lubed with what looks like a blue grease. The instructions also say to soak them in diff oil before install so they don't get a "dry start", but I think those are instructions for bearings that are not pre-greased. So other than wet the seals with a little diff oil (and the axle shaft) I probably won't be soaking these bearings in oil - it would kind of defeat the whole purpose of the grease already in there.
I got the second Timken repair bearing today. I also called around about the National RP-5707 and turns out Kragen had it in a different brand - also USA made - for less: $25 ea. So I got a pair of those, as well. I think the brand is Master Pro They are the same diameter as the Timkens, which fit quite well the last time I put some in ( about 2 years ago now). Then I really had to search for a new diff cover gasket. As usual the van either isn't properly listed in the books or nobody had the right gasket in stock. Finally a Napa parts guy let me look through his catalog, I took measurements on the diff on the truck, and selected one from his book that looked closest. I think it's the right one. But by the time I got home from driving to five different parts stores I decided to put off pulling the axles till next weekend.
Oh, and I discovered the cause of the grabby back brakes. Turns out I had over-adjusted the parking brake some time back, probably because the leaking grease and/or oil had already gotten to the brake shoe linings. So I backed way off on the parking cable adjustment and no more binding/grabbing. And with most of the lube cleaned out of the brakes, the parking brake actually kinda sort works well enough for the time being. The rear brakes were probably dragging a bit before, although the shoes and the drums didn't show abnormal wear, probably because of the oil contamination. I expect the gas mileage will improve now.
The Master Pro repair bearings are pre-lubed with what looks like a blue grease. The instructions also say to soak them in diff oil before install so they don't get a "dry start", but I think those are instructions for bearings that are not pre-greased. So other than wet the seals with a little diff oil (and the axle shaft) I probably won't be soaking these bearings in oil - it would kind of defeat the whole purpose of the grease already in there.
Last edited by veefre on Sun Jun 27, 2010 9:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
veefre- Number of posts : 424
Location : San Leandro, California
Registration date : 2008-09-10
- Post n°72
Re: Noisy rear axle...
Here are the two different types of bearings. You can see the name of the double seal bearing is from Master Pro. Originally I thought, given the lower price, that this was an import, but the box says Made In USA.
veefre- Number of posts : 424
Location : San Leandro, California
Registration date : 2008-09-10
- Post n°73
Re: Noisy rear axle...
Here's a closeup shot of the second seal, with seal spring showing, as well as the blue grease.
I'm a little puzzled by the instructions though. Not only do they say to pre-lube the bearing with differential oil despite the pre-lube load of blue grease, but it also says not to use the bearing if the axles shows signs of noticeable wear or damage at the original bearing path.
This confuses me. Why would anyone need a repair bearing if there wasn't signs of wear in the original bearing path??? Is the axle I showed in an earlier post on the verge of failure due to the noticeable wear in the original bearing path? Or are they just being super cautious for legal reasons?
I'm thinking that since there is no gouging or signs of cracks, that the axle pictured on the previous page is probably OK. The surface in the bearing path looks no worse than the cast surface elsewhere on the axle, IMHO. But I think I'll be looking for new axles anyway. Could be cheaper in the long run than dealing with these leaks.
donivan65- Governor
- Number of posts : 12218
Location : San Diego, California
Registration date : 2008-05-12
- Post n°74
Re: Noisy rear axle...
I don't think you should worry about that inner seal,,,,,,it rides in the canyon cut by the original bearing so it aint sealing nothing,,,,,just be careful when you slide that axle in and see if the C clips will go on,,,,,,and grind a little off the flange to let the axle go in deeper so those clips will go on,,,then you wait until the brake starts grabbing from oil dripping out of the seal,,,,,,,IT IS WHAT IT IS,,,,,,,
veefre- Number of posts : 424
Location : San Leandro, California
Registration date : 2008-09-10
- Post n°75
Re: Noisy rear axle...
Thanks, Doni.
Actually, it looks to me like the double seal bearing is quite a bit longer than the Timken single seal bearings. And it looks like the second seal will ride just inside (towards the differential) the original bearing path, on the still smooth area of the axle. That's what Digz said, as well.
I'll know more when I pull the axles and hold up the new bearing to the old shaft.
Good news is that my boss OK'd me bringing in my axles and turning down the extra material on the flange on the big lathe at work. That will be a lot faster than hand grinding, I think. I still have to make a radius tool for the axle, though, since I don't want to create problems with too sharp a corner at the join between the shaft and the flange.
And I see that the axle in your photo has an equally worn "canyon" where the original bearing rode. If yours didn't break, I don't think mine will either ;-)...
Actually, it looks to me like the double seal bearing is quite a bit longer than the Timken single seal bearings. And it looks like the second seal will ride just inside (towards the differential) the original bearing path, on the still smooth area of the axle. That's what Digz said, as well.
I'll know more when I pull the axles and hold up the new bearing to the old shaft.
Good news is that my boss OK'd me bringing in my axles and turning down the extra material on the flange on the big lathe at work. That will be a lot faster than hand grinding, I think. I still have to make a radius tool for the axle, though, since I don't want to create problems with too sharp a corner at the join between the shaft and the flange.
And I see that the axle in your photo has an equally worn "canyon" where the original bearing rode. If yours didn't break, I don't think mine will either ;-)...
|
|