BRINGING IT ALL TOGETHER.... A's, G's & E's


Disc Brake brackets

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Wolfster

Number of posts : 101
Location : Omaha, Ne
Registration date : 2016-08-27

Disc Brake brackets

Post by Wolfster on Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:13 am

Currently working on a couple of prototypes of master cylinder brackets for the Wilwood 1" remote dual reservoir master cylinder. While I was at the fabrication shop we discussed fabricating master cylinder brackets and hardware. D&D gets $225 shipped for theirs if you can get a hold of him, he returns your email/msg, or has them in stock. In order for me to have them produced, I would either have to commit to a production run of 10 or 20 sets. If I went with the 10 set run, they would retail at $175. 20 set run would retail at $165. These would fit most 14" wheels, not the 13".
Wondering if there is any interest from the members here on having them produced?
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jdlaugh

Number of posts : 224
Location : Tulsa, OK
Registration date : 2013-03-18

Re: Disc Brake brackets

Post by jdlaugh on Thu Sep 28, 2017 10:09 am

I already bought the D&D kit, so no interest here. Sadly, Econoline traffic on Vintage Vans seems to have dropped to a trickle, so I don't know if you will get a big response. Are you a member of the 61-67 Econolines group on Facebook? It's very active with 4,000 plus members. Might make the offer there.

I see you're from Omaha. Are you the Lora Sater in that FB group?

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Wolfster

Number of posts : 101
Location : Omaha, Ne
Registration date : 2016-08-27

Re: Disc Brake brackets

Post by Wolfster on Thu Sep 28, 2017 12:39 pm

Yeah, that would be me. Use the wife's FB page.
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Seth G
Vintage-Vans Listings Manager
Vintage-Vans Listings Manager

Number of posts : 1700
Location : Anacortes, WA
Age : 44
Registration date : 2013-04-24

Re: Disc Brake brackets

Post by Seth G on Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:03 pm

If you want a shortcut I have a file ready to go to the cutter. You can use intrepid, trans am, or dakota rotors. Probably others to. The Intrepid rotor is ideal, not for 14" or special rim fitment, but b/c it's dirt cheap, ~11"+ diameter, the hat is low and 5 on 4.5" bolt circle. If you're running disc brakes chances are you don't have a problem w/ having 15" rims other than buying them, and then tires are better and cheaper at that point so wtf. The Dakota rotor is great for smaller rims and still much narrower than the jeep rotor D & D uses. I agree, $200 for brackets and can't bother, give me a break. They should be $90, @ that I'd dbl my money with water jetted mild steel and have very little time involved at this point other than boring out and cutting the caliper holes and threads, which I'd have jig'd on the drill press, and mailing them out. Not to mention having them cut from SS or zinc'd or whatever you want. The beauty of Intrepid rotors is that they don't require any spacer between the brackets. Like Old Skool Vics disc brake setup. The T/A setup I'm running needs 3/16" spacer, there's a file for that to, make it whatever thickness you need.... I had mine cut out of 3/8" steel and have got 2K on them now. Metric calipers, I used the T/A rotors b/c I had them. If I remove the 3/16 steel spacer the Intrepid rotor bolts up. The caliper depth is off slightly. And that's the only variable, you dig? Easy fix b/c they really need to be tapped on a drill press anyway Wink Good an square. It's all in the details. Like said, there's a small market for these vans.
T/A Rotor:

Intrepid Rotor:




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Wolfster

Number of posts : 101
Location : Omaha, Ne
Registration date : 2016-08-27

Re: Disc Brake brackets

Post by Wolfster on Sat Sep 30, 2017 11:09 am

Well Seth, if you can double your money and have them sell at $90, why aren't you doing it?
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Seth G
Vintage-Vans Listings Manager
Vintage-Vans Listings Manager

Number of posts : 1700
Location : Anacortes, WA
Age : 44
Registration date : 2013-04-24

Re: Disc Brake brackets

Post by Seth G on Sat Sep 30, 2017 5:32 pm

I don't have the time to justify it. My design needs a little finish work. After committing to one(or two) rotor(s), the caliper depth has to be established. And there simply isn't enough of a market to justify pulling my daily driver back out of service to get it all dialed in. And like you said, 14" rims, old 15" steelies, etc. Some of these aren't going to fit. And then you've got two caliper depths, so 2 types of brackets, and the later would need a spacer or 2 and that would have to be dialed in. And then there is the issue of the master cylinder. Ideally you could have a power asst master with a remote reservoir but I never found quite the right fit one, I made compromises for the sake of time and money and got it done. I considered that same master cylinder from Wilwood but I wanted a booster, not sure if it's possible with that unit and it would be ideal to find something that could be bought @ any autoparts store. There were some promising japanese ones iirc but I never got that far. I made my own disc brackets, had them cut and they are in service. But they are for 79 T/A rotors b/c I had them and they fit the bill. With a slight change in caliper pin depth on the bracket and less the spacer they will work with Intrepid rotors, 2 flat pieces of steel per side. Same but with a thick spacer they will fit the dakota rotors... It would need verification but I feel that neither will interfere with the sway bar. The first gives you one less part to make and a larger rotor, the latter would probably fit more of the smaller rims. I don't know if you finally got some. If I was to try and sell one to the masses I would probably go with the Dakota rotor. As far as costs go, we have a good water jet guy nearby. Getting the price down would be to get enough made at once and having them zinc'd or cut from stainless would obviously raise the price some. A one off set is less than half of the cost of a D & D caliper bracket set.
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jrdunn96

Number of posts : 267
Location : Cashion, OK
Registration date : 2016-01-01

Re: Disc Brake brackets

Post by jrdunn96 on Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:42 am

If you guys get this thing off the ground, I'd take one. Mine is still in pieces (It hit a snag about a year ago when I got a new motorcycle and my son got one too.). I ordered some of the parts from Rock Auto (I think I ordered the Intrepid rotors.). I need to get back to work on it!
Jim
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Seth G
Vintage-Vans Listings Manager
Vintage-Vans Listings Manager

Number of posts : 1700
Location : Anacortes, WA
Age : 44
Registration date : 2013-04-24

Re: Disc Brake brackets

Post by Seth G on Mon Oct 02, 2017 6:05 pm

The problem with Intrepid rotors is interference with the rim welds on some 15" steelies depending on what caliper is used. The oem metric caliper is larger than the aftermarket versions. With the Dakota rotor, not only is it a smaller diameter, the caliper is pulled further away from the rim b/c of it's hat height. If you are running alloy rims, I'd definitely go with the Intrepid rotor.
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archerw

Number of posts : 12
Location : Fairbanks, AK
Registration date : 2017-07-08

Re: Disc Brake brackets

Post by archerw on Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:37 pm

I am definitely going the disc brake route. Not too excited about order-in-limbo situation. I'd be interested in some brackets for 15"+ wheels, and won't be doing it for a few months...

Seth, when you mention metric caliper, would the OEM S-10 fall into that category?
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Seth G
Vintage-Vans Listings Manager
Vintage-Vans Listings Manager

Number of posts : 1700
Location : Anacortes, WA
Age : 44
Registration date : 2013-04-24

Re: Disc Brake brackets

Post by Seth G on Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:02 pm

Yeah, the "standard" 80's & 90's GM "metric" calipers. Same one's used in D&D's kit and countless others.

I've got to say, putting power assisted disc brakes on the van was one of the best things I've done to it. One of the main reasons I'm hesitant to get to far into it is b/c after doing mine I know what all goes into doing it right and it's not really a "bolt on" affair that anyone could do without alot of guidance, esp when we start talking about power assisted brakes. Even just getting the drums off the hubs, removing the old studs, having the hub faced on a brake lathe, and installing the new correct studs etc. w/o screwing up something. There's a lot to doing it right. Thanks to people like Vic LaFontaine the info is out there but it isn't as straightforward as we may like. When Vic was offering his excellent kit he would receive your hubs/drums and send you back the hubs, faced, with the new studs installed for the very reason that it is involved. But it is totally doable for anyone with good mechanical sense. The only bolt on deals involve using the original master, a 67 master or some other manual brake master. And even then the precarious part is the hub and studs bit. Contrary to what people claim, I have my doubt's that the advantages of front discs over drums are that great when you stick with a manual system. Less likely to pull to one side would be the greatest advantage, followed by water logged braking I'd guess. But it's still going to take at least as much pedal force to stop. A maintained drum system with well bled lines, you probably wouldn't notice much difference. Another advantage to discs is the ease of brake pad replacement, but how often does that happen?

I'm going to replace my wheel bearings soon. I still have the set of intrepid rotors. When I do I'll take some measurements. I might pick up(borrow Wink) a dakota rotor from the store while I'm at it and do that one to. I have my old 14" steelies laying around to, so that could tell me something if a made some plywood ones and fit it up.
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63 vanup

Number of posts : 4
Location : Blythe, CA
Registration date : 2015-01-09

Re: Disc Brake brackets

Post by 63 vanup on Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:57 pm

I've been following this thread and thought I would add another option for the hub and rotor. You can use the hub and rotor assembly for a 78 Granada by changing to the econoline bearings. They fit right into the hub. You will need to use a different dust cap dorman 618-101 and a different seal skf 17374.

This way you have a new hub, rotor, studs, and bearings. These rotors range from $25 for the standard up to $70 for drilled and slotted.

In the past I've made brackets for both the GM metric and Jeep CJ bendix calipers. By looking at the pictures these would work with Seths bracket with a spacer and with the D&D brackets with shorter spacers.
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archerw

Number of posts : 12
Location : Fairbanks, AK
Registration date : 2017-07-08

Re: Disc Brake brackets

Post by archerw on Thu Oct 05, 2017 10:09 pm

Looking forward to hearing about brackets if you ever get time to tackle that again.

PO had recently redone F drums and they seem to be working well enough. I do think a larger rotor disc brake setup would be more effective at stopping. Power boost would definitely be great but that's another project.

Since i have a '67, it seemed like a little less of an undertaking.
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Wolfster

Number of posts : 101
Location : Omaha, Ne
Registration date : 2016-08-27

Re: Disc Brake brackets

Post by Wolfster on Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:35 am

The diameter of the master cylinder has a lot to do with it. The 1" master cylinder will handle drum/drum and drum/disc setups with easier pedal effort.
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Seth G
Vintage-Vans Listings Manager
Vintage-Vans Listings Manager

Number of posts : 1700
Location : Anacortes, WA
Age : 44
Registration date : 2013-04-24

Re: Disc Brake brackets

Post by Seth G on Fri Oct 06, 2017 7:44 pm

Yeah, I've read that. The wilwood 1" was on my radar b/c of it.
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jrdunn96

Number of posts : 267
Location : Cashion, OK
Registration date : 2016-01-01

Re: Disc Brake brackets

Post by jrdunn96 on Sat Oct 07, 2017 4:32 am

What size is the original master cylinder? Could you reduce the amount of effort required by altering the geometry of the brake pedal? It would change the length of travel to apply brakes but so will changing the size of the M/C. I know it is like "reinventing the wheel" and Ford had professional engineers and design teams build it in the first place. Just another thought bouncing around in my head(like a BB in a gymnasium).
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Wolfster

Number of posts : 101
Location : Omaha, Ne
Registration date : 2016-08-27

Re: Disc Brake brackets

Post by Wolfster on Sat Oct 07, 2017 5:17 am

Where would you alter the brake pedal? My idea on the master cylinder bracket for the Wilwood 1" tandem remote was to keep it as close to stock mounting and placement as the original master cylinders and able to use the stock brake pedal set up on the pre-67 vehicles. About the only thing that would change would possibly be the push rod length, but won't know that for sure until a prototype is completed and mounted.

Just got some additional hardware and bearing/bushings this past week so I'll be able to get to work on it shortly. In the meantime, it's been mostly cleaning up the yard and getting ready for winter....and a few honey-do projects. lol

Between Ace Hardware and Tractor Supply, I've been able to locate most of the needed stuff. The threaded female heim joint will probably have to be ordered on-line.

I'm really trying to keep the manufacturing costs down.
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jrdunn96

Number of posts : 267
Location : Cashion, OK
Registration date : 2016-01-01

Re: Disc Brake brackets

Post by jrdunn96 on Sat Oct 07, 2017 5:37 am

Of course I didn't have anything specific in mind, just an idea. Mine is in pieces so I couldn't really test for ergonomics. I could put the pedal back in and check for clearance. I could be as simple as moving the pedal further from the pivot point. Moving the M/C connection would require less movement since it will operate on a ratio basis(distance pedal-pivot:distance M/C connection-pivot). I told you that stuff just "pops into my head sometimes". Rolling Eyes I'm not trying to change your plan, just tossing it out there.
Jim
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Wolfster

Number of posts : 101
Location : Omaha, Ne
Registration date : 2016-08-27

Re: Disc Brake brackets

Post by Wolfster on Sat Oct 07, 2017 6:58 am

Jim, I really do appreciate the suggestions. I'm one of those guys who has to "prove" to themselves that it works or it doesn't. I call it the "I'll show me" approach. lol Once I get a prototype on, then I can look at other changes. Only so much I can fit in this old brain at one time....
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jrdunn96

Number of posts : 267
Location : Cashion, OK
Registration date : 2016-01-01

Re: Disc Brake brackets

Post by jrdunn96 on Sun Oct 08, 2017 4:50 am

Here I am being the "fly in the ointment", again. I thought I remembered that my Epup had a 1" bore master cylinder originally so I checked RockAuto. Not all of their M/C and rebuild kits state the bore size but the ones that did said it was a 1" bore. That means that the Wildwood M/C won't give you any hydraulic advantage. Since it is designed as a universal fit, it may offer other advantages. I don't know how readily available they would be in the event of failure "away from home". "More food for thought". Although, I don't recall ever changing a master cylinder anywhere but home.
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Wolfster

Number of posts : 101
Location : Omaha, Ne
Registration date : 2016-08-27

Re: Disc Brake brackets

Post by Wolfster on Sun Oct 08, 2017 4:02 pm

More food for thought. Is the 67 dual a 1" diameter? If you're comparing the stock pre-67 master cylinder to a dual, there is a large difference. Every replacement pre-67 that I've seen is a reconditioned unit. The Wilwood is new. Warrantied.

I've used their duals on other street rods replacing stock singles and there is a difference.

Obviously this isn't going to be for everyone. And, it's not a money making venture for me. Unlike others, if I can build something better, I don't mind putting it out there for use. This is my last build. When it's done, it's done and gone.
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Seth G
Vintage-Vans Listings Manager
Vintage-Vans Listings Manager

Number of posts : 1700
Location : Anacortes, WA
Age : 44
Registration date : 2013-04-24

Re: Disc Brake brackets

Post by Seth G on Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:49 pm

Yup, can't wait to see how it turns out. Like I said, I've got files if you want a starting point. What rotor and caliper are you going to use? Show-me and all aside, I feel the same.

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Re: Disc Brake brackets

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