BRINGING IT ALL TOGETHER.... A's, G's & E's


Power brakes in a second gen?

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GiraffeSquad

Number of posts : 12
Location : N.C.
Registration date : 2014-04-09

Power brakes in a second gen?

Post by GiraffeSquad on Thu Jan 28, 2016 8:31 am

Iv been searching the forum and can't really find anything on power brakes. Right now on my 69 g10 I have the stock drums with all new wheel cylinders, master, and pads. It certainly  stops fine but you have to REALLY put some pressure on that pedal. My main reason for wanting to hook up power breaks is for when I have a trailer on the back and a motorcycle. Slowing down and even sitting at a stop sign on an incline you have to be standing on the pedal.

Iv been looking at brake boosters and hydroboost but my big issues are clearance. The master cylinder is so tucked in there that there is no room. Has anyone done like a master relocation or have any other alternatives that can be stuffed up in there?
Thanks for any info
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Twinpilot001

Number of posts : 6186
Location : spokane ,Wa.
Registration date : 2009-09-28

Re: Power brakes in a second gen?

Post by Twinpilot001 on Thu Jan 28, 2016 11:21 am

many have done the PB mods. requires some actual modifications to the master area on frame. m1dadio has an extensive article on brakes & others in the archives here-just search it. There are also disc conversions on the g 10's also there with & without PB. cheers
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65-G10-guy

Number of posts : 109
Location : Waynesville NC
Registration date : 2012-11-16

Re: Power brakes in a second gen?

Post by 65-G10-guy on Thu Jan 28, 2016 10:57 pm

Hey Giraffe I'll throw a few things out here for ya.  First do you have a dual master cylinder, if not change that first. When you have a failure at least you still have a chance of getting stopped. Unless you have changed all lines and hoses you still are trusting your life to 50 year old parts. The last van I bought blew a rear brake line as I was pulling into my driveway. When the brake pedal goes right to the floor it puts your stomach in knots real quick. I was lucky.  Second item is the size of the master cylinder bore.  Larger bore takes more pedal pressure. Smaller bore means more pedal travel but less pedal pressure. If everything else is in good order swapping the master for the next smaller bore may be an answer.  Third suggestion.  I installed a disc brake kit from M1Dadio (a member here) on my first gen. The kit includes caliper brackets and great instructions. All the other parts needed are listed in the instructions and were readily available from any good parts store.  I went with the manual master he listed as a starting point and was very pleased with the result.  Best of luck  Jerry
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panelmanrd

Number of posts : 764
Location : kcmo
Age : 56
Registration date : 2009-10-04

Re: Power brakes in a second gen?

Post by panelmanrd on Fri Jan 29, 2016 7:00 am

I did the front disc brake also, the improvement in stopping ability is
fantastic. no pulling to either side and no brake fade, one of the best
mods that I have done to my van. not wanting power assist, manual works great.
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donivan65
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Number of posts : 11462
Location : San Diego, California
Registration date : 2008-05-12

Re: Power brakes in a second gen?

Post by donivan65 on Fri Jan 29, 2016 10:04 am

In my book, disk brakes have less friction area and those calipers require more pressure to activate them,,,,,,they are made to be used with a booster,,,,,,,,however,,,,,once you adjust  to your new   stopping distance,  they are GREAT,,,,,,stopping straight is the big improvement and none of the wheels lock up when slowing down,,,,,,,and no self adjusters to worry about,,,,,,,,1st thing is get rid of those 50 year old metal and rubber brake lines,,,,,,change the master cylinder to a 2 line like the 67-70 2nd Gens have if you have a 1st Gen, 64-66 van,,,,,,,I guess if you have been spoiled by only driving power brake vehicles, there is some hope for you,,,,these vans did use a Hydrovac unit,,,,a brake booster with a vacuum line on it,,,,,,,mounted under the floor,  behind the front tire,,,,,,the master cylinder lines went to it,,,,,and it increased the pressure to the wheel cylinders,,,,,,,I think you should have better brake action than you have,,,you might have a brake problem,,,,,,,you 2nd Genners with drum brakes,,,,,,you  feel your brakes work pretty good.....right????  



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panelmanrd

Number of posts : 764
Location : kcmo
Age : 56
Registration date : 2009-10-04

Re: Power brakes in a second gen?

Post by panelmanrd on Fri Jan 29, 2016 11:05 am

my disc brake conversion works so much better than the drums ever did
and the drum set up was with all new components, I use much less brake effort
to stop than with the drum set up. I have no problem with panic stops, it just stops.
I used to have a 77 volare with drum rear disc up front and now power assist and my
van stops every bit as good as the old volare did. like I mentioned before a much needed
improvement!!!
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dix
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Number of posts : 7974
Location : pittsburgh pa
Age : 60
Registration date : 2008-05-29

Re: Power brakes in a second gen?

Post by dix on Fri Jan 29, 2016 3:49 pm

i agree with every one ... i'd like to add if a trailer is pushing you down the road it might be a good idea to add electric brakes or a trailer up grade along with the disc brakes , i'm running a dodge with the disc brake up grade and agree it's the best upgrade out there.


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donivan65
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Number of posts : 11462
Location : San Diego, California
Registration date : 2008-05-12

Re: Power brakes in a second gen?

Post by donivan65 on Fri Jan 29, 2016 5:09 pm

well if he is complaining about his drum brake pedal being too hard to push down, he sure aint gonna be any happier throwing disk brakes on the front,,,,,,drum brakes need 500 lbs of pressure to lock up,,,,disks, 800,,,,,,thats why there is a proportioning valve in the rear brake lines,,,,to cut that 800 down to 500, so the brakes stop at the same time,,,,you need to push harder to get the job done,,,,,,BUT,,,,,,after a few stops, you get adjusted to the brakes,,,,it becomes automatic,,,,you kind of leave a little more space between you and the car in front of you,,,,it also depends on your shoe size,,,,,a brake pedal feels different if you wear a size 7 than someone who has size 12,,,,,,I worked on a fleet of new pick ups, some had power, some had manual front disk brakes,,,,the manual disk truck drivers complained the trucks did not stop right,,,,,so I know there are differences in power and non power front disk brakes,,,,,,but in any case,,,,,,,I aint taking my front disk brakes off,,,,,,,,
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65-G10-guy

Number of posts : 109
Location : Waynesville NC
Registration date : 2012-11-16

Re: Power brakes in a second gen?

Post by 65-G10-guy on Fri Jan 29, 2016 8:50 pm

My 2 daily drivers are modern with power brakes. I don't notice any significant difference when I drive the manual disc van but I m always light loaded.  Anyone with one of these old vans will benefit and be happy with the M1D disc upgrade. It was by far the best upgrade money I spent.  Hey Giraffe where are you located in NC.  I am in western NC.
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66e100pu

Number of posts : 147
Location : So-Cal
Registration date : 2011-04-02

Re: Power brakes in a second gen?

Post by 66e100pu on Sat Jan 30, 2016 9:08 am

I'm not as familiar with the G's as I am with the E's & A's, but as is usually the case there is always a way to get something done.  A power booster is one of the best things you could ever add.  It won't make you stop any faster, but your driving comfort goes up substantially.  If you undertake a conversion, adding front discs will give you as close to a modern braking system as you're going to get.  The key is fabrication skills - yours, or if you know someone that help you out with anything you don't have the tools or comfort level doing.  The booster/master assembly can be placed just about anywhere; under the dash, under the floor, wherever.  The two methods I've used in the past is a 90 degree booster/pedal mount, and bell crank with  rod and heim joints.  Both take time to layout properly, but it isn't rocket science either. Because of the front-end design of the early's, the pedal mounts and brackets take a bit of fabrication to install them properly due to the lack of a conventional firewall, but it's nothing some square tubing and welding can't cure.  Fitting a 90 degree mount is usually the easiest way to go.  The booster/master tucks up under the dash and the only issue is how to mount the bracket securely.  You can take a look at the 89-94 Geo Metro booster and master too.  It's one the smallest combos out there.  I put one in a 65 Ranchero and it will throw you through the windshield - amazing performance from something that looks like it would be hard pressed to stop a go-kart.  If you go the remote method (under floor) you can use bell cranks (any number of them) to change direction and reach from the pedal pivot to booster activation as long as the ratio remains at 1:1.  I have this set-up on my A-100 with the booster mounted in the front doghouse area.  That location works on mine because the truck is a mid-engine, so the doghouse is empty up front - that location won't work on a stocker, but there is always somewhere it will fit underneath.   On mine it took two bell cranks to get the job done.  There is nothing off the shelf that I could ever find that would work, so plan on fabricating the cranks and modifying your pedal if you go that route.  In any case, it's not an afternoon upgrade, but if you noodle it out right it's something that a week-end of work will transform your early for the better.  I've included a pic of a 90 degree mount.  You can find them on ebay or Summit for about $150 - hope this helps!

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donivan65
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Number of posts : 11462
Location : San Diego, California
Registration date : 2008-05-12

Re: Power brakes in a second gen?

Post by donivan65 on Sat Jan 30, 2016 9:39 am

Lets see some pictures of your set up......I think maybe RIP and M1D have power brake set ups also,,,,,,
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Edoz

Number of posts : 18
Location : Tulsa, OK
Registration date : 2012-09-30

Re: Power brakes in a second gen?

Post by Edoz on Sun Jan 31, 2016 3:43 pm

I just did the disc brake conversion on my 69, and the difference is amazing. It requires a lot less pedal pressure to get stops in a much shorter distance than the old drum setup.

Looking at the space available in the master cylinder area, it looks like installing a booster would be a hell of a lot of work for a diminishing return.
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Scott

Number of posts : 1469
Location : Anoka, MN
Age : 47
Registration date : 2008-05-20

Re: Power brakes in a second gen?

Post by Scott on Sun Jan 31, 2016 5:10 pm

Watching Fantom Works the other night they added a Hydroboost system to a car. Which is basically adding a brake booster that uses a power-steering pump for hydraulic assist instead of Engine Vacuum.

Here's a link to an after market place that sells them. I would still take some work to make them fit our vans, but its nice to see all the options.

http://www.vancopbs.com/category_s/66.htm

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