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BRINGING IT ALL TOGETHER.... A's, G's & E's


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Gothboy
millwright71
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    318 v8 Carb help...pics

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    Post by Guest Mon Jan 14, 2013 4:18 pm

    I have a 69 a100 with the 318 v8 and I need some help.
    Little story: Got the van from someone locally, it ran good and everything. It died on us one day and we thought it could of been carb related, we took off the one that was on it to try and clean it up. Long story short it's in a bunch of pieces and me or my dad don't think we could get it back together.

    We called the guy we bought it from and he still had the stock carb. We picked it up and everything looks good except the linkage. We can't get it figured out.
    The throttle linkage, when pushed, moves toward the rear of the motor. This stock carb has to be pushed toward the front of the motor to function?
    318 v8 Carb help...pics 20130114_1548152

    This is the carb that came on it
    318 v8 Carb help...pics 20130114_1550362

    This is the one that the guy gave us and said it was stock
    318 v8 Carb help...pics 20130114_1550552

    Pic of the linkage rod and how it looks, moves toward the back of the motor when throttle is pushed
    318 v8 Carb help...pics 20130114_1552532
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    Post by Guest Mon Jan 14, 2013 4:21 pm

    Before we took the old carb off, after it died the van wouldn't want to start. It would sound like it is about to fire, then backfire and flame through the carb.

    My dad thinks it jumped the timing chain
    We need to get the carb figured out though before we can diagnose it more
    jkr
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    Post by jkr Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:38 pm

    first pic is a carb from the 80's i would guess but compatible. the lower pic looks period correct and should be a bolt on. the older carbs some didn't have a return spring mounted to the throttle shaft and they fell wide open if there was nothing to hold them. i'd say thats what ya got goin on there............. jeff
    donivan65
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    Post by donivan65 Mon Jan 14, 2013 6:10 pm

    On the timing chain,,,,turn the balancer to TDC,,,, the distributor rotor should be pointing to #1 or 6,,,,are the points good and adjusted?
    millwright71
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    Post by millwright71 Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:45 pm

    I am stuck at work right now, but I can get a pic of my original carb for my 67 tomorrow and post it up.

    Tom
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    Post by Guest Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:29 pm

    I'll get a pic of the distributor/points wednesday...the guy said it was a ford unit with dual points?
    With the distributor cap off, while cranking the engine, you should see the spark when it's spinning?

    JKR...the thing on the original carb that's throwing us off is the linkage. When you hit the gas, the rod pushes toward the back of the motor. The carb has to be pushed the opposite way to open. Best way I could explain it if that's clear lol
    Gothboy
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    Post by Gothboy Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:52 am

    I have the stock carb off my 68 A108 if you're interested. Drop me a line amigo.
    blackace
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    Post by blackace Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:30 am

    I have the stock carb on my truck also which is a 318. I can get a pic of mine and the linkage also and post.
    RodStRace
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    Post by RodStRace Tue Jan 15, 2013 7:01 am

    It sounds like you guys aren't familiar with old cars.
    First, before you bolt on the carb, rotate the engine by bumping and by hand to TDC. Only go clockwise. DO NOT rotate it backwards. Take off the dist. cap and note where the dist. rotor is pointing. Now, slowly rotate the engine by hand backward, while someone else watches the rotor. AS SOON as it starts moving, stop. Note how many degrees the crank moved before the rotor moved using the timing marks. This will tell you how much chain slop you have. under 10 will live, over 10 degrees is worn. Over 15 is bad news. It really helps to have he plugs out so you aren't working against compression. Make sure to note where No. 1 pug wire is. and keep the plug wires in order.

    Popping thru the carb and not running is most often caused by timing (cam = timing chain or ignition). I'd check the ignition points, condenser and dwell. These are normal wear items and require periodic maintenance. It's a lot more likely they are the reason, not the timing chain, although on this old stuff, anything is possible. I have never heard of anyone putting a Ford Dist. in a Mopar engine. The Mopar has a shorter shaft with a flat tip that engages the intermediate shaft. The Ford has a longer shaft with a female hex end that engages the oil pump drive shaft. Even installing a dual point plate is... umm... goofy. Ford ignition plates have more problems and wear issues than GM or Mopar. It MIGHT have an aftermarket dist. like a Mallory that uses Ford points. I'd suggest replacing it with a good stock mopar dist.
    This is a listing for a dual point Mallory.
    http://www.summitracing.com/parts/maa-2557901/overview/make/dodge

    My personal feeling on these is if you GAVE me one it wouldn't even be stored in my garage. It would have to sit outside until trash day came or sit in the junk pile for scrap weight. This is what a stock Mopar point dist. looks like...
    318 v8 Carb help...pics Attachment
    As for the carb having to be pushed forward to open, that is incorrect. The Carter BBD you show and just about every other carb I can think of pushes back to open. If you look at your picture, the linkage pivot is above the throttle shaft. That means the pivot moves BACK to open. The 2 screws with springs are the idle speed screw and the fast idle screw. They are normally against the big screw holding the fast idle cam with the throttle closed.
    The shiny pivot arm pointing toward them in the picture is where the throttle linkage connects.
    318 v8 Carb help...pics 20130114_1550552
    RodStRace
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    Post by RodStRace Tue Jan 15, 2013 7:08 am

    I will also note that the newer carb you had on the van did not have the pivot. It bolts into the big hole in the picture. Where was the linkage connected?

    Here's a diagram of the linkage from the website I've posted a few times for those who haven't bought a service manual yet...

    318 v8 Carb help...pics ThrottlelinkageV8front
    rebar
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    Post by rebar Tue Jan 15, 2013 7:37 am

    RodStRace wrote:It sounds like you guys aren't familiar with old cars.

    (Sigh...) Kids these days...
    RodStRace
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    Post by RodStRace Tue Jan 15, 2013 8:01 am

    rebar wrote:
    RodStRace wrote:It sounds like you guys aren't familiar with old cars.

    (Sigh...) Kids these days...

    Hey, these were built 2013-1964=49 years ago!
    The last carb'ed vehicles (feedback carbs!) were 1988! That was 25 years ago!
    Points went out in the 70s.
    Unless they have had them around and someone to teach them, it's not something they have been exposed to. Got to give them props for having an interest and trying. So that's why I write up these posts. Pass that knowledge along!
    I've got a 1947 Chrysler Windsor with Fluid Drive. I sure needed help figuring out how that thing worked! Had to read up on how to drive it! cheers
    rebar
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    Post by rebar Tue Jan 15, 2013 8:16 am

    Yes, I know. I know. And you always do a terrific job. It's just hard to believe that I'm actually one of the old-timers, quickly fading away.

    Meanwhile, I still say the "Chino Valley A-100 Museum" would qualify for a federal grant. Now, I can't prove it, but I've heard that it's already visible from the space station, with the naked eye.
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    Post by Guest Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:05 am

    You're right...i'm not that familiar with them, that's why I came here.
    This is what is on it
    318 v8 Carb help...pics 20130115_084708
    318 v8 Carb help...pics 20130115_084733
    RodStRace
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    Post by RodStRace Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:43 am

    Yeah, an old Accel, not a Mallory.
    I would still suggest replacing it with a stock point distributor or do a stock electronic ignition swap.
    I could probably replace those points and set them by feel to within 3 degrees blindfolded, but Iwouldn't run them. It's just old school high RPM stuff that is outdated and has been since the 70s. I sure wouldn't recommend them to someone who is just learning this stuff and has other car issues. I can tell you that whoever replaced the points last didn't lube them properly, caused them to wear quickly. And they do look like Ford style points, only backwards. Accel only, I think. O'Reilly has the points and condenser set Part # 8328 for 50 bucks. For that,
    you can buy a rebuilt stock dist. at autozone and almost cover the core charge too! Cardone # 30-3820 38 bucks plus 15 core...
    I would suggest selling off that P.O.S. and getting good cheap, reliable stuff.
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    Post by Guest Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:52 am

    Thanks for the help, I appreciate it
    Think I'll get the one from Cardone and go from there
    RodStRace
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    Post by RodStRace Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:35 am

    rebar wrote:Meanwhile, I still say the "Chino Valley A-100 Museum" would qualify for a federal grant. Now, I can't prove it, but I've heard that it's already visible from the space station, with the naked eye.

    Not quite! Smile
    318 v8 Carb help...pics Farm
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    Post by jkr Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:15 am

    when he said ford distributor i thought one from chrysler marine. prestolite, they have made there way into street vehicles from marine applications by shoddy mechanics. you want fun some time try to figure why a perfectly running engine won't make your trans move, and your trans was just rebuilt. a chrysler marine engine was swapped into a car, but it was the counter rotating engine that were put into boats.

    before you go ANY further;
    BE VERY CAREFUL AS THERE IS STILL 3 SHOTS OF FUEL IN THE LINE FROM THE PUMP TO THE CARB IF YOU HAVEN'T PUT IT BACK ON.!!!!

    if you haven't pulled the dist just check for the timing marks. remove the #1 plug, move engine to tdc and look at the rotor position. from factory it should point towards the front bolt holding the intake manifold on the DRIVERS side of the engine. DO NOT PANIC IF ITS NOT.
    just check where #1 is on the cap and if it is within reach of the contact inside of the cap. if it is your close.
    now do what rod said to check play, ANY OLD 318 WILL HAVE LOTS..... but still run.
    if its close then your problem is elsewhere, like the points. for the novice and you guys sound like novices to me, Sorry, but old fools like me have done this hundreds of times in a pinch.
    take and rotate the engine by hand till the highest part of the distributer cam wheel is against the rubbing block of the points. tear a small piecce off a matchbook or package of smokes and insert it between the fixed side and moving side of the points contacts. there should be a slight amount of pull but should slip out easily and the points should NOT be closed. there needs to be a small gap when its on the highest part of the cam and closed tight when on the flats. thats close enough to get the van to fire if everything is good. coil, wires, cap, rotor, AND MOST IMPORTANT FUEL !!!
    find a safe place to burn a shot of whatever the pump is sending and look at the flame. if it flares and burns blue and the only thing left is a carbon stain on the floor you are good. anything else hook up a gallon can in front of the pump and crank it through to the carb. it WILL run, it has to.
    the first rule of an internal combustion engine; you need spark (fire) and fuel, the air is already there.
    let us know......................... jeff
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    Post by Guest Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:21 am

    ^ thanks for the good descriptions...will do some work on it this weekend when I have more time.

    The reason why I said that stock carb activated when the linkage was pushed toward the front of the carb is because with it all the way toward the back like in the pic there was no fuel being sprayed into the carb. With the idle screws pushed all the way up (which would be idle normally) there was fuel being sprayed into it.
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    Post by rebar Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:17 pm

    Always thought that duel points were just twice the headache.

    The rotor looks pretty burnt. In fact, not that I have that much experience but, don't think I've ever seen the Lucite (plastic) of the center (coil wire) contact burnt like that. Might also wanna check the contacts inside the cap for corrosion, as well as check the cap closely for hairline cracks – with the cap upside-down, stick both thumbs into it and pull in opposite directions at the same time, then rotate some and repeat. If you break the cap, it was no good anyway.


    Last edited by rebar on Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post by rebar Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:24 pm

    RodStRace wrote:Not quite!

    Very Happy

    Gettin' there though.
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    Post by slowflapper Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:45 pm

    Rods got you on the right track but in regards to your carb I wanted top put this out:

    That there is a Carter BBD 2 barrel, its primitive but it works, my van has one, a rebuild kit can be had for about $10. They also sell re-manufactured ones under the Holley name but the rebuild kit is the way to go.

    The rebuild kit comes with an exploded diagram, you can also find them online and I have several in my image gallery (click the + thingy to zoom in on them) as well as a "carb tuning" sheet.


    Like Rod said, check the timing, condensor, points, coil etc. Mine had a ghost bug in it where it would get hot and then shut off, it turned out to be a combination of bad distributor, and two bad coils (one was NIB from the parts house).


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    Post by Guest Tue Jan 15, 2013 3:31 pm

    can someone confirm the point gap for me
    .017?
    RodStRace
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    Post by RodStRace Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:37 pm

    Yes, .017" is a common standard for V8 points.

    It's related to how much the points must physically open to disconnect the current flow.
    I'd suggest marking the dist. location, then rotating it to the maximum opening to check gap. Then you can return the dist. to the initial setting, in the hope that when originally installed, the timing was set properly. That should allow it to start, so timing can be checked with a light.
    If you check dwell, remember to 'block' one set of points with a small piece of cardboard and set to ~30 degrees. Then 'block' the other set and set it to 30 degrees. When both are in operation, the dwell will be longer (~35). That's how they are designed to work.

    http://www.gofastforless.com/ignition/points.htm
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    Post by jkr Tue Jan 15, 2013 6:05 pm

    0.017 about the thickness of the cardboard in a pack of cigarettes or a match book cover........ LOL

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