BRINGING IT ALL TOGETHER.... A's, G's & E's


Operation BREADBOX

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wirepuller

Number of posts : 168
Location : Edmonton, AB, Canada
Registration date : 2011-01-28

Operation BREADBOX

Post by wirepuller on Thu Nov 08, 2012 10:42 pm

Here starts the official thread for my resto-mod of my 61 Econo I purchased from Twinpilot over a year ago. Plans that have been put in motion, but not fully executed yet within the last 2 months:

1. Custom 2x4 square tube chassis
2. Fatman Fabrications IFS Stage V
3. Complete ridetech air ride suspension
4. 05 Sport Trac disc brake rear end, c/w sway bar
5. Triangulated 4 Link suspension
6. 408 stroker
7. AOD transmission with shift kit, 2300 stall converter
8. 20" Bonspeed Huntington or GT-B rims
9. 40"x80" sliding ragtop (van is an excamper so the hole is there already)
10. Fill in the aftermarket side window
11. Swap side window doors with non-window doors
12. Fabricate the rear windows to open/close like the rear side vents on Ford Expeditions do with a switch and motor setup.
13. Body drop (only if needed)
14. Ditch the front bumper
15. Ditch the rear bumper
16. Custom exhaust tips to exit where license plate goes
17. French license plate into rear door
18. Ghost LED brake/tailight setup

I think that about covers the meat and potatoes of this build. Here are some pics, thus far. At this point, it's renderings, web clippings, inspirations and about 100 hour of planning and thinking thus far.


I have a couple of metal fabricating shops in mind in Edmonton to visit on my next set of days off to see if they can mandrel bend some tubing for me. I don't think it will be a problem for those guys.

Original state:



Some Inspirations:









Here are some renderings I colored in, based on other slammed vans I found on the internet. The first one is my favorite:







There are about 6 more I've done, but these are my favorites.

Here is my scaled drawings of the frame I have designed. It shows the IFS front end and the 05 sport trac disc brake rear end, with the tires shaded in for dexterity. I should also note I originally intended on putting a modular 5.4/4R100 setup in this thing, but ultimately decided on the stroker due to cost, size, no computer gadgets and readily available performance goodies.

Top view:



Side view:



Ok, so since these renderings were done, and as I was doing some research on the sport trac rear end, my drawings indicated that my driveshaft would only be about 12" long. That presents a problem, in that I plan on dropping this thing into the weeds and that might put too much flex onto the u-joints. Especially when I want to drag the frame and shower sparks everywhere....

So, I remember (...was it Army of Six, or mothradeath????...) who put a Jag rear end into his van, and that got me thinking. Well, I don't want to put a Jag into it, but what about other IRS setups. This would eliminate my u-joint problem, and increase the wow factor at the same time. I settled upon this:



It's an IRS out of an early 90s Mercury Cougar XR7. 3.23 posi rear end. So how do I mate it to my frame I thought. More searching put me in touch with these guys. Truck IRS. After some communications with Dave, I've decided to forgo his mounting system, as it won't exactly work for my application and will design a custom setup for myself. In the meantime, I found a guy in Sherwood Park who has a field full of the old T-bird/Cougars and on Nov 16, I go put my deposit on a rear subframe so he can remove it from one of his parts cars. I will also be taking some extensive measurements when I go see him, in hopes of fabricating my own mounting system, and also hopefully eliminating the gullwing mounts altogether. My thoughts are to weld the frame rails to the inside edges of the square part of the subframe. Problems with that will be that the frame would get pretty narrow at the back and I would need to fabricate some large mounts for the airbags and shocks. Not sure there yet, I need to get those measurements and see it in person.

I have also decided to eliminate the AOD, after much discussions with my engine guy. He told me they lose as much as 70HP due to inefficiencies. Now, with 500HP that doesn't sound like much, but hey, why lose it if you don't have to?? So now, I'm back to the good old C4 with a strip shift kit, mid range stall converter and a gear vendors over/under drive setup. I haven't found dimensions for it yet, but it appears that it bolts on in place of the tailshaft of the C4 transmission. Anyone with some experience with these things, your comments would be greatly appreciated!!!

351W block dimensions:



Not exactly as shown, but very similar:



Under/overdrive setup:



I'm leaning towards the Bonspeed wheels, as they will completely fabricate the wheels so they sit exactly where you want them. I haven't gotten a cost from them, as they don't offer up prices until you go through the whole schpeel of sending in your design requirements. At that time I will have to make the executive decision, but until then, full steam ahead.

Bonspeed Huntington:



Bonspeed GT-B:



Sliding Rag Top:



There is a company in the states, Sliding Rag Tops, that has a 40" x 80" kit available.

It should be noted at this time, that I am still in the acquiring parts and design mode. I hope to start fabricating by late spring or early summer. I don't have a heated garage and it gets freaking cold in Edmonton through the winter. I'll try to post updates as they come about. I'm so excited for this project. It would be my 3rd such vehicle I have resto-modded and I get better everytime. Can't wait!!!!

WP

Oh.....here is my last project:




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Digz

Number of posts : 3726
Location : United States Six Lakes MI
Registration date : 2008-05-17

Re: Operation BREADBOX

Post by Digz on Fri Nov 09, 2012 3:10 am

If you want some IRS inspiration/ideas check out this site.
http://irsforum.boardhost.com/index.php
You'll find pics, videos and some first hand advice on what you might run into and have to keep in mind as you fab the frame.
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wirepuller

Number of posts : 168
Location : Edmonton, AB, Canada
Registration date : 2011-01-28

Re: Operation BREADBOX

Post by wirepuller on Fri Nov 09, 2012 5:05 am

Great, thanks Digz!!
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Big W

Number of posts : 3277
Location : Saskatoon,Sask,Canada
Age : 53
Registration date : 2011-01-13

Re: Operation BREADBOX

Post by Big W on Fri Nov 09, 2012 6:02 am

Oh man!!! that's going to be sweet when she's done. Even I can't waite for this to get started. Very Happy cheers
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Twinpilot001

Number of posts : 6186
Location : spokane ,Wa.
Registration date : 2009-09-28

Re: Operation BREADBOX

Post by Twinpilot001 on Fri Nov 09, 2012 7:08 am

iLooks nice plan there wirepuller - cheers I would suggest a vette rear end - 65-78 models -can be later also yet i do still have a complete one here with 3:08's in it i believe -The vette is so much easier to mount & work with too-i know!!Having one for 45 years = also im doing same on a 351 w block now = yet using a Scat superlite weight totally forged stroker kit out to 427.Ill also suggest using nothing but forged pistons in anything you build also.They will survive should you ever overheat a motor -again - heeh =I Know!! The gear vendors unit is bullitt proff yet very expensive = versus a AOD built correctly-70HP loss -dont think so ?? and look into the GV adapter lenght & then driveshaft lenght ull get with that =like ujoint to ujoint?? very short. Love the top idea too -you will have a one of a kind van. Just my old ways of thinking on all & from experiences also. Scat stuff -just hard to beat =look into them online -Happy Vannin

only thing I didnt see you plan is - the "Snow Plow " mounting =welcome to canada !! affraid

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Guest

Re: Operation BREADBOX

Post by Guest on Fri Nov 09, 2012 8:04 am

I have an AOD in my Falcon sedan delivery and the horse power loss is no where near that. My engine was dyno'd at 304 on an engine stand, and from what me engine guy said with the AOD I should see around 290 at the wheels. Just what I've been told need to get it on the dyno tho verify..
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wirepuller

Number of posts : 168
Location : Edmonton, AB, Canada
Registration date : 2011-01-28

Re: Operation BREADBOX

Post by wirepuller on Fri Nov 09, 2012 9:28 am

Doghows, you might want to get that thing Dyno'd. This quote below is right from Car Craft Magazine.

"For the Ford, once Kevin eliminated the engine-driven fan, the AOD automatic transmission-equipped drivetrain still ate up an average 33 percent power. This may be the price for using an automatic, especially an AOD. By comparison, the manual transmission-equipped Buick looks much better, costing only an average of 21 percent power. That's still a difference of 12 percent power. If you're making 400 flywheel horsepower, that's an amazing 48 hp. That's a bunch."

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/ccrp_0311_drivetrain_power_loss/viewall.html

WP

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Guest

Re: Operation BREADBOX

Post by Guest on Fri Nov 09, 2012 9:31 am

Wow I hope not...
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wirepuller

Number of posts : 168
Location : Edmonton, AB, Canada
Registration date : 2011-01-28

Re: Operation BREADBOX

Post by wirepuller on Fri Nov 09, 2012 10:15 am

Twinpilot; Im kind of a stickler for Ford in a Ford, I recognize the advantages of a vette rear end but sadly, my principals get in the way. With how low this thing is going to be, the front end will push snow just fine!! LOL!!!

WP
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Twinpilot001

Number of posts : 6186
Location : spokane ,Wa.
Registration date : 2009-09-28

Re: Operation BREADBOX

Post by Twinpilot001 on Fri Nov 09, 2012 10:22 am

Good BOY!!!
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wirepuller

Number of posts : 168
Location : Edmonton, AB, Canada
Registration date : 2011-01-28

Re: Operation BREADBOX

Post by wirepuller on Mon Oct 14, 2013 7:02 pm

Finally sourced out a Cougar IRS.  It comes out of a 92 Cougar, and it's a 3.08 Limited Slip rear end.  I will be starting to take dimensions and some more planning.  Hopefully I'll have the IFS by spring time so I can start fabbing next spring/summer, but in the meantime, I have to clean it up and stiffen some of the welds.





WP
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Digz

Number of posts : 3726
Location : United States Six Lakes MI
Registration date : 2008-05-17

Re: Operation BREADBOX

Post by Digz on Mon Oct 14, 2013 7:20 pm

That looks interesting. The width is good as it is?
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RodStRace

Number of posts : 3022
Location : Chino Valley
Registration date : 2010-01-21

Re: Operation BREADBOX

Post by RodStRace on Tue Oct 15, 2013 7:31 am

A great plan, with lots of thought going in.
Consider a few other things as part of the design.

Cooling! Putting in a bigger heat pump means shedding more heat. Raise the radiator inlet/floor area and mount the radiator so it cools better. Get good airflow over the engine. It's not fancy, but will keep the breadbox on the road.

Rear end mounting angle/height. You need to know not only where it will bottom out, but where it sits at ride height. I'd measure the four mounting points in a stocker so you know where it sits normally, then figure out how it botttoms out.

Steering. VANGO used a chain/gear setup, others have used Type III VW bus steering, also look at the Aussie vanup. The rack under your knees will need to be connected to the steering wheel in your hands.

Front door/inner fender area. All of these had to section the door, keeping the window from full drop. This part of the body is responsible for front door fit and body integrity. Even with a full frame, you have to add support to the nose so things stay in place. An extra set of mounts forward of the bottom rear of the door will be a big help.

Brakes. I'd look at the B van 90 degree setup and racing masters for space and packaging. This should be a serviceable and quality setup for the power and speed levels you are building.

I want to hear more of your plans!
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wirepuller

Number of posts : 168
Location : Edmonton, AB, Canada
Registration date : 2011-01-28

Re: Operation BREADBOX

Post by wirepuller on Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:57 am

Great thoughts RodStRace!

Due to my job change, the engine may get put on hold, but I had given it some thought to build a tunnel similar to what Army of 6 did, with an electric fan, etc. You have some good for thought.

Now that I have the rear end, my next step was to measure and figure those things out.

Steering....I have some interest in the Aussie setup. I found another guy used one with great success. I don't particularly like the chain setup on Vango.

Inner fenders/door area....I have seen what was done to Vango and Hibmacronans van and I have been doing a bit of head scratching there. I don't have my van in my garage, it's still in storage, so I haven't been able to sit and stare at it to figure things out. Your comments will help for sure!

Brakes...haven't even gotten that far, so I'll look into your suggestion also!

Old Skool
Econoline Guru

Number of posts : 1193
Location : North Hills, CA
Age : 65
Registration date : 2009-06-13

Re: Operation BREADBOX

Post by Old Skool on Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:58 am

I had and miss my GV over drive,, it doubles your gears with a better ratio for OD,,, it will shift from 1st to 1st over drive so fast it will snap every lug nut you have,,,, ONLY issue is drive shaft length. Check out the adapter as they replace tail stocks,,, We also JUST put one in an electric Porsche for a two speed trans.  Mine was over 10 years of hard usage and now in a 650 hspwr street rod, with only a freshen up...You can pick and choose your gears and get the best of both worlds.
vic
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wirepuller

Number of posts : 168
Location : Edmonton, AB, Canada
Registration date : 2011-01-28

Re: Operation BREADBOX

Post by wirepuller on Tue Oct 15, 2013 11:29 am

I think with the OD tranny and GV drive, there is virtually no driveshaft. This, I believe, won't be a problem, as the rear end is IRS and fixed to the frame like the engine/tranny is. It would be a rigid connection. Correct?


Digz, I missed your comment earlier. Width is good, based on earlier measurements and info from the internet. I need to confirm this yet, but I got widths from Ford and I measured the van.
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Twinpilot001

Number of posts : 6186
Location : spokane ,Wa.
Registration date : 2009-09-28

Re: Operation BREADBOX

Post by Twinpilot001 on Tue Oct 15, 2013 2:22 pm

hi again wire!!~=nice thinking there on all =except!1 as for the c4 trans - do a C6=longer lasting & better & they rae all over here too come in late econo vans with a 300 cube 6 motor & some other apps too! I jave a built one in mt 65 comet caliente-never had a problem!! Also reconsider that vette rear end! cleaner & easier to mount & so many around also from C3 vetts & up -yes i do still have one with 3.08 ratio in it . The later c5 vetts have the all alunimun setups also!! They all mount with 3 points too -simple@!!
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wirepuller

Number of posts : 168
Location : Edmonton, AB, Canada
Registration date : 2011-01-28

Re: Operation BREADBOX

Post by wirepuller on Tue Oct 15, 2013 2:45 pm

Thanks Twinpilot, but I've bought the IRS already. I did however give serious thought to your C3 rear end.
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Twinpilot001

Number of posts : 6186
Location : spokane ,Wa.
Registration date : 2009-09-28

Re: Operation BREADBOX

Post by Twinpilot001 on Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:48 pm

thx im saving that for the T bucket maybe?cheers 
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wirepuller

Number of posts : 168
Location : Edmonton, AB, Canada
Registration date : 2011-01-28

Re: Operation BREADBOX

Post by wirepuller on Tue Aug 19, 2014 3:34 pm

Got my garage all setup.  Tight quarters, that's for sure.  Roughly have the IFS & IRS squared and distances set.  Still need to do final square ups and level off.



Finally purchased a 2006 CV IFS.  Needs some cleaning.  





Got some 2x4 rectangular tubing, measured out the spacing for the bolt holes on the IFS.  Transferred over to the tubing, and drilled out the holes for the bolt sleeves.





Looking forward, I have done a ton of research on how to make a jig for the IRS, so I can eliminate the ugly spaceship looking subframe.  



I ended up back at Team 321.  He has moved beyond the IRS adapter kits for pickup trucks and now fabricates a complete cage for the IRS.  Cost is about $2700, but still significantly cheaper than a complete IRS from Kugel, Heidt or FFR.  This will make for a much cleaner frame than Frankensteining a tube frame to manufactured steel.  I am just in the process of putting together the information he needs so I can get the cage fabricated by him.  I get the parts in yellow and black, plus options for shocks, brakes and finishes.  

**Disclaimer** Not exactly as shown.



Below is his IRS cage adapted with square tubing.  It has been built for a Comet.  My cage will be very similar to this one.



Over the next couple months, I plan to have the basic frame built so I can remove the original suspension components and slide the van onto the new frame, so I make room to park the better half's car in the garage for winter.  Through the winter I plan to remove the floorpan so I can continue fabricating the remainder of the frame and prep it for the body drop.  

More pics to come, once significant progress has been made.

WP
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Big W

Number of posts : 3277
Location : Saskatoon,Sask,Canada
Age : 53
Registration date : 2011-01-13

Re: Operation BREADBOX

Post by Big W on Tue Aug 19, 2014 4:31 pm

THIS is going to be kool. Can't waite for more updates. cheers 
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wirepuller

Number of posts : 168
Location : Edmonton, AB, Canada
Registration date : 2011-01-28

Re: Operation BREADBOX

Post by wirepuller on Thu Sep 25, 2014 12:40 pm

Spoke with Dave at Team 321.   He is going to build me the IRS cage, with a square tubing mount.  Here is the process I went through.

I had to figure out the new ride height with the CV IFS.  To do this, I found a diagram of a CV.  Based on standard tire size, the bottom of the frame rail is about 10" off the ground.



With a front tire diameter of 25", I calculated a rough 1-1/2" drop in frame height, which would take me to 9" to the bottom of the frame.  Now, at this point as an aside, the body sits 5" below the bottom of the frame rail, so my body ride height will be about 4".(You may notice my calc's don't equal my comments here....I made some changes once I realized my math error and have not updated the drawings yet.) I don't think I'll need a body drop.



From there, I let Dave know, and in the meanwhile, he sent me a preliminary drawing of what the squre tubing rails would look like.



Here is the revised drawing he sent me, with 9" ride height and 28" diameter tires and Shockwave air bags.



From there, I told him I was going with a 32" diameter tire, so he sent revised dwgs with the tires added, to confirm no interference with the Shockwaves, control arms or frame rails.  This brought his IRS Cage up almost to my ride height.  Small adjustments made to the final design.



At the same time, I had to figure out what track width I wanted to go with, which would also determine my backspacing for my rear wheels.



Once I had this figured out, I feared that my CV IFS may be slightly too wide.  I have endlessly calculated the numbers, and it's so close.  The problem I have run into, is it is very hard to find wheels with the mounting face pushed out almost to the front of the wheel.  So, I pulled out the solid front end, and slid the IFS under it to get some true measurements.



And then I drew it out and while it may just fit, with heavily modifying the door sill and bottom of the doors, I did not feel good about it.  I sent out some emails to a few local fab shops to see if they would narrow the IFS for me to meet my desired 56" track width.  Then I had a revelation....I don't really need a crossmember as it is not supporting the engine.  So now I may cut the IFS apart and bolt the end pieces to the frame and gusset between the frame rails, where the IFS bolts to the frame.  If this does not work, then I will look at getting a MII IFS kit.



That's about where I am at right now, I have also been see-sawing on what wheels to get.  

I found Detroit Steel Wheels, who will make 18"-22" steelie wheels, with trims, caps and will powdercoat them.  Plus they sell tires with white walls.



Wheels on a caddie???



Second take on this theme, is Delmo Wheels.  They are a 2 piece billet wheel, made to order, up to 24".  Very sweet indeed.



On an old chevy



Dave should have the IRS cage done in about 1.5 months and then I need to figure out shipping.  In the meantime, I will remove the 9" rear end and hopefully get the IFS cut up and mocked up.  Updates to follow.

WP
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wirepuller

Number of posts : 168
Location : Edmonton, AB, Canada
Registration date : 2011-01-28

Re: Operation BREADBOX

Post by wirepuller on Fri Mar 27, 2015 7:42 pm

A bit of an update....

My Team 321 IRS subframe was finished this winter and will arrive Sunday!!
I gave up on the Crown Vic IFS....too wide.  So I bought a Full Tilt IFS Kit.  It arrives Sunday!!

I started cutting up the floorpan.  I need to remove the engine/tranny yet and then it's no holds barred on the floor pan.

Once I get the new parts laid out, I'll throw up some more pics.



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66mnecotruck

Number of posts : 327
Location : Minneapolis
Age : 53
Registration date : 2014-02-15

Re: Operation BREADBOX

Post by 66mnecotruck on Sun Mar 29, 2015 8:56 am

Wow! Thanks for sharing.
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Twinpilot001

Number of posts : 6186
Location : spokane ,Wa.
Registration date : 2009-09-28

Re: Operation BREADBOX

Post by Twinpilot001 on Sun Mar 29, 2015 9:03 am

Looking Good-WIRE!! cheers now the work really begins!! Have it finished in june?? affraid

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