BRINGING IT ALL TOGETHER.... A's, G's & E's


What would you do? LYRAD'S PROJECT

Share
avatar
Digz

Number of posts : 3727
Location : United States Six Lakes MI
Registration date : 2008-05-17

Re: What would you do? LYRAD'S PROJECT

Post by Digz on Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:29 am

Grab a new bearing and some plasti-guage and see where you were at. What was the history of the engine prior to rebuild? Hi-miler? Had it been turned over since April? My BBC has been sitting for longer than that rebuilt, so I am curious what you end up finding out. Did you pre-fill the filter or prime the oiling system before fire up? Just tossing some stuff out there..
avatar
Joe Van
Moderator 1st Class
Moderator 1st Class

Number of posts : 4619
Location : Ocala fl
Age : 50
Registration date : 2012-10-11

Re: What would you do? LYRAD'S PROJECT

Post by Joe Van on Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:08 am

The problem IS if the rod bearing got hot from no oil you dont know what other damage it did main bearings,cam bearings,lobes on the cam, ECT......If the oil filter gasket was kinked I would go after the parts supplyer if you had oil pressure then the oil filter was full of oil.!!!. The only other place oil can come out that FAST besides the oil pressure switch is the Rear Main Seal..... If it was damaged or not installed properley... See if you have any oil on the flywheel or in the cover inside if so then its the Rear Main Seal.......I had a machine shop rebuild a engine for a customer with a 2 peice Rear Main Seal and the top halph was installed properley and the lower seal was reversed in the lower bearing cap and the motor poured oil when we started it................................Keep Us Posted...........
avatar
Joe Van
Moderator 1st Class
Moderator 1st Class

Number of posts : 4619
Location : Ocala fl
Age : 50
Registration date : 2012-10-11

Re: What would you do? LYRAD'S PROJECT

Post by Joe Van on Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:28 am

Digz wrote: My BBC has been sitting for longer than that rebuilt,
.................. JOE as long as your motor was primed (spun the oil pump) when or after you got it then it should be fine.!!!. On my Vans if they sit longer than 6 months I disconect the distribitor on the motor and let the motor spin over a few times until I see the oil pressure guage starting to move.... If your motor has not been primed then I would pull the distribitor out and spin the oil pump until you get oil pressure before you start it...........
avatar
dodge man

Number of posts : 2041
Location : ohio
Registration date : 2012-08-08

Re: What would you do? LYRAD'S PROJECT

Post by dodge man on Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:51 am

i wish i could have done that on this 318 dodge engine, but theres no way to get oil presure without cranking the engine over, i pulled the coil wire so it wouldnt start and cranked it till i seen the oil gauge move, i havent started it yet, but you guyss are makeing me nervice, this engine was supose to have been dyno tested, i hope it was, is there anything i should do before fireing it up now ? i'm used to chevy engines, this is my first new dodge engine
avatar
Joe Van
Moderator 1st Class
Moderator 1st Class

Number of posts : 4619
Location : Ocala fl
Age : 50
Registration date : 2012-10-11

Re: What would you do? LYRAD'S PROJECT

Post by Joe Van on Thu Dec 05, 2013 12:13 pm

dodge man wrote:i wish i could have done that on this 318 dodge engine, but theres no way to get oil presure without cranking the engine over, i pulled the coil wire so it wouldnt start and cranked it till i seen the oil gauge move, i havent started it yet, but you guyss are makeing me nervice, this engine was supose to have been dyno tested, i hope it was, is there anything i should do before fireing it up now ?  i'm used to chevy engines, this is my first new dodge engine
        WAITING on the parts delivery driver again...The main reason of priming any engine is so when you start it everything has oil and you dont get a dry start if you had oil pressure when you were turning it over then you will be FINE if its a factory flat tappet cam just be prepaired to let in run to break in on hi idle when you first start it for at least 20-30 minuets and taping the throttle every so often during breakin just dont rev it up to much during that time just to be SAFE put a bottle of Competition Cams breakin oil $10.00 at Summit raceing before you start it and change the oil after the first 1,000 miles.............
avatar
Lyrad

Number of posts : 277
Location : St.Albert, Alberta
Registration date : 2011-01-20

Re: What would you do? LYRAD'S PROJECT

Post by Lyrad on Thu Dec 05, 2013 1:02 pm

Digz wrote:Grab a new bearing and some plasti-guage and see where you were at. What was the history of the engine prior to rebuild? Hi-miler? Had it been turned over since April? My BBC has been sitting for longer than that rebuilt, so I am curious what you end up finding out. Did you pre-fill the filter or prime the oiling system before fire up? Just tossing some stuff out there..
Before I bought the van on ebay.  The owner told me the engine was good recent rebuild and only had 30,000. miles on it.  But when I picked it up in South Dakota the exhaust was tampered with (donut backed off) very loud oil all over the back of the van.  After the exhaust was tightened up there was a lower engine knock.  That why I rebuilt it, the crank  had wrong bearings in it and thats why I put a new one in it.

The block may have had damage that was not visiable, the old bearings where destroyed with the front ones being the worst.  

We did prime the engine prior to starting with a distributor extention and air drill, only got it up to 20ish.  My buddie also poored a tin of STP oil treatment down the distributor hole.

No problem asking Digz... I wish I had a clear understanding of what the helll happened.
avatar
Digz

Number of posts : 3727
Location : United States Six Lakes MI
Registration date : 2008-05-17

Re: What would you do? LYRAD'S PROJECT

Post by Digz on Thu Dec 05, 2013 1:43 pm

Was the crankshaft brand new or re-conditioned? I ran into an engine killer crank one time. They hadn't flushed the oil passages out correctly if at all and it destroyed the entire rotating assembly. I do not assume the machine shops do it right any more.
avatar
Lyrad

Number of posts : 277
Location : St.Albert, Alberta
Registration date : 2011-01-20

Re: What would you do? LYRAD'S PROJECT

Post by Lyrad on Thu Dec 05, 2013 4:37 pm

Digz wrote:Was the crankshaft brand new or re-conditioned? I ran into an engine killer crank one time. They hadn't flushed the oil passages out correctly if at all and it destroyed the entire rotating assembly. I do not assume the machine shops do it right any more.
The crankshaft was new.

I'm not a engine guy and basically just help in the freshen up procedure.  I now know how important the steps we missed doing are, Like....  Dipping the block to clean the oil passages and grit,  checking the line bore on the Crankshaft and Camshaft, checking the new ring gaps and the use of plasta-gauge on all bearings.

So because we didn't do any of these things it is hard to determine what failed first, My thoughts any way.
avatar
Joe Van
Moderator 1st Class
Moderator 1st Class

Number of posts : 4619
Location : Ocala fl
Age : 50
Registration date : 2012-10-11

Re: What would you do? LYRAD'S PROJECT

Post by Joe Van on Thu Dec 05, 2013 4:49 pm

Even if the crank or block had possible problems how do you explain all the oil on the floor thats why you spun a bearing no oil.!!!. if the rod bearing was bad from the begining you would have had very little to no oil pressure 5-10 pounds.. I know you dont want to hear this but with that motors history I would look for another block and crankshaft..........Thats just my opinion..Smile ...
avatar
Lyrad

Number of posts : 277
Location : St.Albert, Alberta
Registration date : 2011-01-20

Re: What would you do? LYRAD'S PROJECT

Post by Lyrad on Fri Dec 06, 2013 7:11 am

Okay fair enough, the bearing spun because of no oil.  

But what made the engine over pressure to the point that the oil filter gasket was blown out the side?

*Plugged oil passage in the engine.

*Was the oil filter defective, how would I prove that.

*May be the new oil pump is defective, I thought they are suppost to have a over pressure relief valve built in them.

I Wish that I never tried this Freshen Up / Kinda rebuild option....... BIG waste of money and time.

avatar
Joe Van
Moderator 1st Class
Moderator 1st Class

Number of posts : 4619
Location : Ocala fl
Age : 50
Registration date : 2012-10-11

Re: What would you do? LYRAD'S PROJECT

Post by Joe Van on Fri Dec 06, 2013 9:30 am

I will give some other guys a chance to Reply after this...The only way you can prove the filter is defective is to have a kinked or damaged gasket unless there is a visible defect or tear on the filter seam..As far as blowing the gasket out there is a few different scenarios....Was the filter tight enough, maby the gasket was not seated in the filter all the way was it the right filter.???...I don't think a factory oil pump has the pressure to blow the gasket out and there is a check valve for that you would think if a passage was plugged you would have less pressure remember it ran and had pressure before the crank kit was installed BUT there was lower end problems with that motor way before you got it. Still I think the cheapest and easiest way out in the long run is buy a Rebuilt Short Block and use yours as a Core.. There is still a chance you may have your motor rebuilt again and it may do the same thing...My father had a 1956 Chevy with a small block Race Motor and had the motor rebuilt twice and still had low oil pressure he wound blowing it up in a drag race a few months later and another machine shop said the block was bad...(Main Journals) I am just trying to help out..Smile ..
avatar
Digz

Number of posts : 3727
Location : United States Six Lakes MI
Registration date : 2008-05-17

Re: What would you do? LYRAD'S PROJECT

Post by Digz on Fri Dec 06, 2013 10:56 am

The rods are the last thing to get oil from the system. If I'm reading everything right the failed rod gets it's feed from the 2nd main journal. This is me thinking and I am not in anyway trying to tell you what to do. I'd pull the 2nd main cap and the next rod cap in line and see how they fared through this. Damage there and no where else would indicate some type of blockage or debris above that point and next in line could be a cam bearing issue above that. This would be a big IF but if there was no damage anywhere else, I would think you had shut the engine down quick enough for oil loss not to be the only culprit. As far as that oil filter goes.. that's just weird. There is a plug in one of the oil galleys from the pump/filter that could be out of place but that would not normally be something to worry about unless the previous builder had messed with it and not sure if it would cause that. It very well may not be anything you did wrong but just part of it's history.A couple of the guys here know the size of stuff I have worked on and I have had to trouble shoot some bizzare crap over the years. I just like figuring out what went wrong myself when something fails.
avatar
Lyrad

Number of posts : 277
Location : St.Albert, Alberta
Registration date : 2011-01-20

Re: What would you do? LYRAD'S PROJECT

Post by Lyrad on Fri Dec 06, 2013 11:42 pm

Thanks guys.....ranting sometimes helps.

I now own a custom boat anchor.



avatar
dix
Moderator 1st Class
Moderator 1st Class

Number of posts : 7974
Location : pittsburgh pa
Age : 60
Registration date : 2008-05-29

Re: What would you do? LYRAD'S PROJECT

Post by dix on Sat Dec 07, 2013 5:15 am

Kind of wondering if you were running a hi volume oil pump ?? and what was the oil pressure before it droped off, But none of this matters at this point,


_________________
still vannin since 1974
avatar
Lyrad

Number of posts : 277
Location : St.Albert, Alberta
Registration date : 2011-01-20

Re: What would you do? LYRAD'S PROJECT

Post by Lyrad on Sat Dec 07, 2013 4:05 pm

Hello Dix,  The new oil pump is a stock GM one.  

So many things were happening just to keep it running that I didnt look at the pressure gauge at first start, when I did look it had been running about a minute and was at 30lbs.  I noticed oil on the floor then shut it down with the pressure at zero.  All happened with in 20 seconds.
avatar
dix
Moderator 1st Class
Moderator 1st Class

Number of posts : 7974
Location : pittsburgh pa
Age : 60
Registration date : 2008-05-29

Re: What would you do? LYRAD'S PROJECT

Post by dix on Sun Dec 08, 2013 5:39 am

Lyard the reason i asked was i have a big block with a hi-volume oil pump that will split the filter at the seam so i have to watch what i use, I hate to see stuff like this, After you spent so much time to the details, No matter what you find no company will accept blame, been there, done that, Your build realy does look nice, keep us informed...


_________________
still vannin since 1974
avatar
BillyBlaze

Number of posts : 114
Location : San Luis Obispo
Registration date : 2013-08-15

Re: What would you do? LYRAD'S PROJECT

Post by BillyBlaze on Sun Dec 08, 2013 6:37 am

Such a bummer man.

It sucks cuz not only do you have to go through the cost and all the work fixing or replacing it but after doing all this work I know you were pumped to see her running and hear all your hard work pay off.

Crying or Very sad
avatar
Lyrad

Number of posts : 277
Location : St.Albert, Alberta
Registration date : 2011-01-20

Re: What would you do? LYRAD'S PROJECT

Post by Lyrad on Sun Dec 08, 2013 9:13 am

Okay Guys, Thanks for your input. I have learnt from this, but now it's time to Move Forward.

I have a question.

What Would You Do?

A - Do a proper rebuild on the engine, checking all rotating parts. ( unknown HP and $ ).

B - Buy a new GM ZZ4 crate short block, and bolt my heads and stuff on. ( 330 HP for $ 2,900. )

C - Buy a Rebuilt turn key engine from a engine rebuilder   (340 HP for $4,750. )

D - Buy a new GM ZZ4 crate long block, only needs carb, exhaust, alt. and plugs ( 355 HP for $5,200 )


I,m kinda leaning to (A) there might be some good bits and pieces that I can reuse, but it could take all winter to have all parts checked,fixed and fitted.... no short cuts.

What do you guys think?
avatar
G-Man
Mayor
Mayor

Number of posts : 30745
Location : Fowlerville, MI
Age : 56
Registration date : 2008-05-06

Re: What would you do? LYRAD'S PROJECT

Post by G-Man on Sun Dec 08, 2013 9:21 am

If you got the cash I would do "B", it will have a guartee for problems
avatar
Joe Van
Moderator 1st Class
Moderator 1st Class

Number of posts : 4619
Location : Ocala fl
Age : 50
Registration date : 2012-10-11

Re: What would you do? LYRAD'S PROJECT

Post by Joe Van on Sun Dec 08, 2013 9:24 am

G-Man wrote:If you got the cash I would do "B", it will have a guarantee for problems
............."B" Also
avatar
Digz

Number of posts : 3727
Location : United States Six Lakes MI
Registration date : 2008-05-17

Re: What would you do? LYRAD'S PROJECT

Post by Digz on Sun Dec 08, 2013 1:54 pm

Okay , I'm a sucker for Plan A. Strip the block and get it checked by a reputable builder. Toss all the rotating assembly and get all new guts(crank ,rods , pistons) if the block checks out. Scat and Eagle have some decently priced kits. Cam kits also aren't way out of line. If the block needs any machine work you will probably be better off with a crate engine tho. So much of going this route(rebuild) depends on local costs for machine services. By going with a kit you can play with the HP also.
I'd still like to know what happened and what it did to your engine?

Scotts_A100

Number of posts : 160
Location : Metro Detroit
Registration date : 2010-06-02

Re: What would you do? LYRAD'S PROJECT

Post by Scotts_A100 on Sun Dec 08, 2013 6:32 pm

I feel for your situation. I've been following along with all the work you've put in and was sorry to see this sad turn of events.

I personally chose to go with the option A route on my engine but have had some hindsight thoughts that I could/should have gone with option B and would have some type of security knowing there was some level of gaurantee behind it. You still have the chance in the end with option A where you could find yourself back to where your at now. The cost with the machine work, H-Beam rods, meaty cam/lifters, and Keith Black pistons I've found to be close to what would be spent on option B. Keep in mind that is working on a mopar 318, a GM build may actually be cheaper to do I believe. Even though I've not completed my build or started it as yet I guess I would do it all over as option A because I want in the end to say I did the build myself as it's been a lot of years since building my last one. No matter which choice you make I'll be looking forward to seeing your finished project. Scott...
avatar
uncle ron

Number of posts : 80
Location : orange,calif.
Age : 70
Registration date : 2012-05-31

Re: What would you do? LYRAD'S PROJECT

Post by uncle ron on Tue Dec 10, 2013 10:18 pm

option D   $4436.99  from Jegs  free shipping and no tax  .  put one in my 69 chevyvan last year , at that time cost was only  $4039.99 . I'm happy with it.
avatar
Lyrad

Number of posts : 277
Location : St.Albert, Alberta
Registration date : 2011-01-20

Re: What would you do? LYRAD'S PROJECT

Post by Lyrad on Fri Dec 13, 2013 6:27 pm

DONE!!!! After much thought  I picked (D)  ordered the ZZ4.  Got a great deal for up here in Canada  $4,500. right to my Van Cave.  Jegs was plus exchange, duty and shipping $5,400.

http://www.jegs.com/p/Chevrolet-Performance/Chevrolet-Performance-350ci-355HP-ZZ4-Engine/749876/10002/-1?itemPerPage=90&pno=1
   

Should be here in a couple days.  Woop Woop. DDDDDDDDDD
avatar
Lyrad

Number of posts : 277
Location : St.Albert, Alberta
Registration date : 2011-01-20

Re: What would you do? LYRAD'S PROJECT

Post by Lyrad on Fri Dec 13, 2013 6:29 pm

Hey Uncle Ron, what transmission and rear diff. are you running?

Sponsored content

Re: What would you do? LYRAD'S PROJECT

Post by Sponsored content


    Current date/time is Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:18 am